Who is the ruler of this world?

by PSacramento 65 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  isaacaustin

  Reniaa said:

  the bible doesn't contradict itself it is very clear to those that read it. God and Jesus his son have authority but Satan has been allowed to have control of the current age/system/world till Jesus comes and sorts him out, as the true ruler given rulership overall by his father.

  It just takes reading the bible in context.

  but for the sake of this debate Jesus himself called satan the 'ruler of this world." so the scripture is there

  Reniaa

  My reply:

  I guess I am about tobe guilty of feeding the swine....but here goes....You are quite right reniaa, the bible does not contradict itself. You, as most JWs, in trying to uphold WT doctrine ignore clear verses and simply throw in other seeming proof texts as though they contraidict clear scriptures which you ignore. You use the Bible as a dictionary, you know nothing of reading in context nor do you understand anything about the context of the Bible. You copy/paste verses well but do not understand them. Yes, he is called ruler of this air- the air, or means he uses to try to influence those in this world...he is the god of this world to those who are perishing. Sure jesus called him ruler of this world, before the risen Jesus conquered death and was given all power and authority. Guess you forgot Jesus also saw the ruler of this world fall from power.

  You really are such a waste of time and a pity. The lowliest of swine.
• 

  PSacramento

  John 12:31 was discussed already, no need to go into agian.

  So, just how pwerful was/is Satan?

  Well, Jesus gave is 70(72) disciples power and authority over Satan - Luke 10:18 and in James 4:7 James says "resist the devil and he well flee".

  While Satan always has power and authority over those that are unbelievers ( he is their "god'), he has limied authority and power over believers, as they above verse show.

  He can manipulate, lie and even "murder" in the indirect sense, as Jesus makes clear in John.

  He is the father of lies and deceit.

  In regards to his offer of all the kingdoms of thr world in Matthew and Luke, and how the WT askes, How can he offer what is not his" and why "Jesus did not argue with him in regards to his authority":

  Satan lies and deceives, so why would he say the truth here? Its obious that hsi test was a lie and he was trying to deceive Jesus into false worship, Jesus knew this, rebuking was irrelevant, Jesus's "Begone Satan,..." ended the "test".
• 

  isaacaustin

  GOOD INPUT PSAC
• 

  jonathan dough

  Reniaa wrote:

  the bible doesn't contradict itself it is very clear to those that read it. God and Jesus his son have authority but Satan has been allowed to have control of the current age/system/world till Jesus comes and sorts him out, as the true ruler given rulership overall by his father.

  It just takes reading the bible in context.

  but for the sake of this debate Jesus himself called satan the 'ruler of this world." so the scripture is there

  Response:

  Must agree with her on this one. Absolutely.

  JD II
• 

  PSacramento

  JD,

  Jesus also says that the ruler has NO HOLD on him, hence no Power, The passage sI quoted from Luke and many others are clear on the limited power and "rulership" of Satan, James's is even more damaging, he he says the devil will flee if you resist him.

  Obviously, taking those passages that are clear and refer to Satan, we must also understand that what Jesus meant when he said "ruler of this world" was a temporary arrangement and that upon is Ressuerection, when ALL power and authority in Heaven AND on Earth, was Given to Jesus that the rule of Satan, as elluded in 1John by the use of the word "now", was at an end.
• 

  jonathan dough

  I think you are wrong on this one, Sacramento. Just because Satan had no power on Christ does not mean Satan does not rule the world. Christians are to keep themselves without spot from the World. We are not part of the World. The Kingdom of God can exist on this earth apart from the World. Christ has all power and authority and accordingly allows Satan, for now, to rule "the world." Satan's rulership of the world does not mean everything in existence on this earth, physical or spiritual, is under the control of Satan.

  JD II
• 

  isaacaustin

  JD, you make some excellent points as well that are worthy of my consideration. I will do just that.
• 

  PSacramento

  I think that my view of "rule" and yours may be different, that said, it goes back to what I stated earlier and DD before me, Satan's authority is over unbeleivers only, not those that put their faith in God and his Son Jesus.

  Is there any passage that says that Satan or the devil (in those terms) is the ruler of this world AFTER Jesus's ressurection?
• 

  Deputy Dog

  PS

  Is there any passage that says that Satan or the devil (in those terms) is the ruler of this world AFTER Jesus's ressurection?

  It depends on how you look at it. Premill sees it one way, amill sees it another.

  Rev 11:15

  Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever."
• 

  Narkissos

  The NT theologies which put God/Jesus' victory over the powers of darkness (whether construed as Satan or otherwise) in the past tense always end up in some form of unequal dualism in the present: the "outer world" is still under negative "rule" but such rule has no "right to exist" so to say, it is doomed and on the wane.

  E.g. Ephesians 1:19ff: "God put this power to work in Christ when he raised him from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the age to come. And he has put all things under his feet (contrast 1 Corinthians 15 where this has not yet happened) and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.
  You were dead through the trespasses and sins in which you once lived, following the course (aiôn, eon) of this world, following the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work among those who are disobedient. All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else. But God, who is rich in mercy, out of the great love with which he loved us even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.

  Iow it becomes a contrast between "reality" and "illusion" as it were, which is a reversal of "reality" and "illusion" by common (visible) standards. The church lives by the (invisible) lasting "reality" in which Christ is the sole ruler, while the world remains under rulers which have already lost their power in principle. What is expected for the future is the presently hidden reality becoming manifest, i.e. dismissing the illusion. This is the basic pattern of "deutero-Paulinism" (Colossians / Ephesians) and, somewhat differently (with emphasis on the Spirit working in individuals rather than the church), Johannism.