by Deputy Dog 332 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Spike
There is a 6 paragraph study proving that the Michael (1.) is none other than Jesus Christ with comprehensive Scriptual evidence and sound reasoning on it.
And that is exactly what we are discussing. Your "son of God" has two persons.
You've admitted you don't know "what" came down from heaven. So now I'm asking "who" came down?
I answered the "who" and you didn't like my answer. The only "what" I can think of now, is the "blessing" which manifested itself "like a dove".
Spike I didn't see an answer.
MY "answers" fit MY perspective and understanding. YOURS fit YOURS.
I like that answer! It implies faith. I have come to that conclusion with JWs and them with me. We both agree that only one (or none) of us is right as we both cannot be right as we believe contradictory things. Now, how to settle the issue of who's faith is misplaced?
All the best,
Stephen
The important thing to look for is "common ground". Which precludes attempts to "convert" the other. Each must do their OWN conversion. It may take the form of "assimilation", or it may take the form of "standing out" or "making a statement". Hopefully, our consciences are all being made more open to the Creator's ways of thinking, and more closed to Satan's. Hopefully, we are each becoming better listeners in the process.
Hopefully, our consciences are all being made more open to the Creator's ways of thinking, and more closed to Satan's.
Agreed! That is common ground, amen :)
All the best,
Stephen
DD, you too have a PM :)
There is no way Jesus Christ is a created Angel. Come on, now. The fact that Scripture proves Jesus was, and is, God alone disproves that crazy theory. Furthermore:
J esus Christ is not Michael the Archangel as the Jehovah's Witnesses teach. [Top]
Little known to most people is that the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe and teach that Jesus Christ is an angel, Michael the Archangel to be precise (Reasoning, 218; Insight, 108, 156, 393-394). They base this on Daniel 10:13, 12:1; Jude 9; 1 Thessalonians 4:16; Revelation 12:7-12, 19:11-16; and John 12:31 (Reasoning, 218), but none of these verses come remotely close to overturning the context of Bible teaching or convert God the Son into an angel.
Understandably this little piece of information is downplayed, and for good reason. It’s truly mind-boggling and causes most Christians to pause and take a deep breath. Incredible as it may seem, their preincarnate Jesus was a created angel, then became nothing more than man, and after his resurrection and exaltation returned to being an angel, but a type of super angel, higher and more glorified than all the other angels (Concepts, 65-73). But they are wrong about this as well.
First, the strongest proof that Jesus was not an angel is found in the pages you just read. For all of the reasons that Jesus was, and is, God, those Scriptural truths automatically exclude Him from being an angel. To reiterate just a few, and without intentionally denigrating any angels who might be watching, the Word was eternal, but angels are created. The Word was before all things, but angels are created. The Word created all things, but that would have included Himself if He was an angel. The list is endless, and at some point, common sense must prevail here.
Secondly, and to repeat a point made earlier, “Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever” (Hebrews 13:8 NWT). He cannot have been a preexistent angel who changed completely into mere flesh, and then reverted back to heaven as an angel. On the other hand, there is no such radical change in the Trinitarian Christian world where the preexistent Word was God the Son, remained God the Son during His earthly sojourn, and continued as God the Son after the resurrection and ascension. He never stopped being divine.
Third, when John fell down to worship at the feet of the angel at Revelation 22:8,9, the angel warned him not to and told him to worship God instead. Since the act of worship must only be directed to God, and God at Hebrews 1:6 said with respect to the Son, “Let all the angels worship Him” (NAB), Jesus obviously must be God. There are several other examples of people worshipping Jesus, such as His disciples prior to His ascension (Matthew 28:17 NAB) and when He restored the blind man’s vision (John 9:38 NAB).
The Greek word used for “worship” is proskuneo, and can mean “to make obeisance, do reverence to” and “is the most frequent word rendered ‘to worship’” (Strong and Vine’s, 214). Since the Jehovah’s Witnesses do not believe that Jesus is God, they use “obeisance” or “homage” or “reverence” throughout the Bible when such conduct is directed to Christ. Granted, falling down to one’s knees alone might not equate to worship, and ultimately it is a matter of the heart, but who knows what the heart is feeling? With respect to New Testament worshipers, one can only determine that through circumstantial evidence and the context of the Bible.
The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ Bible shows no one “worshipping” Christ; they do obeisance or pay homage, but after all that you have read thus far, do you really believe that? Can you honestly say that Jesus Christ was just an angel in light of everything He said about Himself, and other people’s testimony, and the many miracles that He performed? Of course not.
In the final analysis the Jehovah’s Witnesses have no legitimate scriptural “context” to rely on, no rational basis for their interpretation, and no justification for altering God’s word as they have done here and elsewhere. The angels were told to worship Jesus and they did, along with His disciples. And as for the blind man who regained his sight, he didn’t simply pay his respects, he dropped to the ground and worshipped Jesus as one would anticipate.
Fourth, verses 5-14 in the first chapter of Hebrews is devoted to clarifying with great specificity that the Son is not an angel, but God. Hebrews 1:1-14 (NAB) states in full:
CHAPTER 1
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through prophets; 2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
3 who is the refulgence of his glory,
the very imprint of his being,
and who sustains all things by his mighty word.
When he had accomplished purification from sins,
He took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.II THE SON HIGHER THAN THE ANGELS
Messianic Enthronement 5 For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“You are my son; this day I have begotten you”?
Or again:
“I will be a father to him, and he shall be a son to me”?
6 And again, when he leads the first born into the world, he says:
“Let all the angels of God worship him,”
7 Of the angels he says:
“he makes his angels winds and his ministers a fiery flame”;
8 but of the Son:
“Your throne, Oh God, stands forever and ever;
And a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom.9 You loved justice and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, anointed you with the oil of gladness above your companions”;
10 and:
“At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth,
And the heavens are the works of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
and they will all grow old like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a cloak,
and like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same, and your years will have no end.13 But to which of the angels has he ever said:
“Sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool”?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent to serve, for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation?
Much of chapter 1 has been dealt with in previous sections and will only be summarized briefly here. The Christ is God the Son and not an angel for the following reasons, to mention a few:
a) At Hebrew 1:3 the Son is called “the very imprint of his being.” A literal translation says that Christ is “the express image of His essence” (Green’s Literal Translation). Here, “image” (Greek charaktar) denotes that the Son is “literally equal to God,” of whose essence he is the imprint. It is the fact of complete similarity which this Word stresses” (Strong and Vine’s, 269). Clearly, Christ could not have been created and most certainly was not an angel because either way He would not be literally equal to God, but much less (see section 28).
b) Hebrews 1:4 states that the Son is “far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.” This means, among other things, that He is superior in the sense of not being an angel at all because he is in a class of His own (not created) and because at verse 6 we learn that God said, “Let all the angels of God worship him.” As explained above, it is God alone who must be worshipped.
c) This is supported by the famous verse 8 where God speaking of His Son said, “Your throne, Oh God, stands forever and ever;
And a righteous scepter is the scepter of your kingdom”
(see section 34 for a detailed analysis).d) Speaking to the Son in the third person (self-communication within the Trinity), verse 10 is an Old Testament passage directed to God Almighty but “redirected to Jesus” (NAB notes 1, 8-12):
At the beginning, O Lord, you established the earth,
And the heavens are the works of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
and they will all grow old like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a cloak,
and like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same, and your years will have no end.
e) Verse 13 quotes Psalm 110:1 where Jehovah refers to Jesus as adonay, a title used exclusively for God.
As strong as this evidence is, the Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t read Hebrews 1:1-14 the same way, but believe that any implication of Christ’s superiority and distinction from the angels means only that he was higher than all the other angels, in a superior position vis-à-vis the angels, though still an angel himself; a super angel. They also teach that many of those speaking in chapter 1 were worshippers of God, not God himself. But the clear language speaks for itself.
Fifth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses attempt to shore up their reading of these verses by arguing that according to the verse following verse 4, the Son must be an angel because both angels and the Son are called Sons of God. If the Son is completely different from the angels, then angels are not Sons of God.
A Watchtower textbook, in commenting on the verse following Hebrews 1:4 (wherein the Son is distinguished from angels), says: “But the fact that Jesus Christ is here distinguished from the other angels does not mean that he is not also an angel of God; otherwise, the fact that Jesus Christ is here distinguished as the Son of God would mean that the other angels are not sons of God. Jesus Christ is here designated God’s Son, not in contrast with the angels, but in contrast with the previous prophets, by means of whom God used to speak to men. -- Heb. 1:1-3 (Concepts, 72)
As a preliminary matter, there is nothing in verses 1-3 that even remotely suggests that the inspired writer of Hebrews in chapter 1 was contrasting God the Son with Old Testament prophets. This is pure fabrication. Read it carefully, and then take a close look at verse 4 which sets the stage for all of the “contrasting” verses that follow:
1 In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through prophets; 2 in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
3 who is the refulgence of his glory,
the very imprint of his being,
and who sustains all things by his mighty word.
When he had accomplished purification from sins,
He took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
4 far superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.
The superior Son is contrasted with inferior angels in verse 4 and all following verses, not prophets.
Furthermore, their logic is unsustainable. It is illogical to say that because angels are called sons of God and Jesus is the Son of God then Jesus must be an angel. That is what they are arguing, but it ignores verse 5 which makes it very clear that Jesus the Son of God is completely different from angels who are called, figuratively, sons of God.
5 For to which of the angels did God ever say:
“ You are my son;
This question in effect means that angels are not his sons in the same way Christ is His Son. Angels are not “His Son.”
Additionally, since the nation of Israel is also called God’s “son” at Hosea 11:1, that would make humans angelic beings as well according to the Jehovah’s Witnesses’ line of thought, but they aren’t. Humans (Israel) are lower than angels ( Hebrews 2:7) though called sons of God yet in a completely different sense and class, just like angels are lower than Christ who is superior, who dwells in a non-angelic class of one, as God the Son, who was and is God.
canned sermons are NOT acceptable as debate, they show that the canned sermon person is NOT listening, is NOT interested in COMMON GROUND, is as UNLOVING as a BULLDOZER.
