The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog 332 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  reniaa

  hi jom

  Okay!

  When I said "burden of proof" I was merely showing when the bible doesn't say that Jesus is 'The One true God" and does provide an explanation that he is literally God's son. To deny this mean you do have to provide proof. I could say that Jesus is a big pink fluffy bunny and the bible doesn't deny that he that either but that doesn't mean he is one.

  I know I have One God YHWH/Jehovah it is stated clearly in deut 6:4 I know he is the Father and the one true God.

  Deuteronomy 32:6

  6 Is this the way you repay YHWH,
  O foolish and unwise people?
  Is he not your Father, your Creator, [a]
  who made you and formed you?

  Deuteronomy 32:39

  39 "See now that I myself am He!
  There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life,
  I have wounded and I will heal,
  and no one can deliver out of my hand.

  here in deut 32 YHWH is clearly identified as the father and then the one God.

  The trinity and by extention hypostatic unions both are just explanantions read into the scriptures to help men explain scriptures that made them think Jesus is God. the mistranslation of John 1:1 being the main culprit. thats why you will find no one where in the bible the concept of 3-1.

  Back to your earlier point that oneness of adam and eve can be used to back up oneness between Jesus and his father (note a total absense of holy spirit in any of the scriptures when refering to this oneness) because the oneness between adam and eve is not a physical one but of agreement as a married couple that become one in purpose so surely then if this is comparable, Jesus and God's oneness is also in pupose and agreement? well we do have a scripture to back this up.

  John 17:11 (New International Version)

  11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

  Jesus praying for his disciples saying that they should be ONE as he and the father are One. which is only possible if this is a reference to oneness of purpose and not about substance and nature.

  An appeal to the majority vote through the ages is not a good one simply because it started a couple of hundred years after the fact. The early christians didn't believe in a trinity at all. trinity was a grown doctrine read into the bible so thats why there was a need for the nicene creed which itself didn't settle things. Originally it was said that wisdom was the third person of trinity which leads me to my next point.

  Why do the Scriptures teach that Jesus came to show the Father to us and do not teach that Jesus came to show the Triune God to us?

  and why did Jesus say, "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent" instead of "Father... this is eternal life, that they may know Us, the only true God."?

  and finally why would any one believe Jesus can be two 'wills' or God 'three natures' when it is never described biblically?

  You keep saying Jesus can swap heads speaking as God then man but there is no scripture literally saying he does this at all.

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin
• 

  reniaa

  hi leolaia

  Good evening and thank you for your response

  fair enough I won't say it is like modalism but...like I said to jon, so your saying we can't use humanity as comparative because they are not spirit, but on what bases do we say that spirit itself can be 3 in 1?

  It's like your saying humans can't be 2 in 1 because they are human but God can be 3 in 1 because he is not human. thats just not logical.

  For us to accept that God can be three in one there has to be a precedent for it in the scripture.

  In fact the scripture does use humanity as comparative.

  John 17:11 (New International Version)

  11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

  So by this scripture we as humans can be one like God and Jesus are one. so which is it?

  Reniaa
• 

  isaacaustin
• 

  isaacaustin

  Deut 32:39 who alone puts to death and makes alive? John 5- who makes alive?
• 

  reniaa

  hi isaac

  good scripture but Jesus himself explains it

  John 5:26
  For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

  jesus was given this authority as well as judging by his father.

  Reniaa
• 

  Deputy Dog

  Reniaa

  just to clarify what any witness or ex-witness could tell you, is that all Jws think is michael is just a name change nothing else.

  You'll have to do better than that. Micheal is just a name change for who? And please, give chapter and verse.
• 

  Spike Tassel

  The way I see it, according to John 17:11, the "they" (those acting with a holy spirit) are the third "person" of the Biblical trinity, in harmony with Matthew 28:18-20. The union or agreement in thought and action is required, so is the bending of Jesus' will and "their" will to the Father's.
• 

  isaacaustin
• 

  reniaa

  Hi deputy dog and narkissos by extention

  because he was saying JWs have a sort of hypostatic Jesus.

  We accept Jesus has many names and titles, he is called "the word" 'immanuel' 'Jesus' 'christ' 'king' 'Priest' 'lamb' all we are doing is adding archangel michael to the list.

  And yes I fully appreciate michael is a logical construct like trinity. It wouldn't massively effect my Jw beliefs if michael turned out to be other than Jesus.

  I think trinitarians would have happily adopted michael but it would mean accepting Jesus is an angel/messenger because the bible doesn't call jesus an angel or does it?

  Malachi 3:1 (New International Version)

  1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.

  The word for messenger here is the word for angel and could be translated angel but it is clearly refering to Jesus, so here we have the bible calling Jesus Angel/messenger of the covenant

  Jesus was baptised he got holy spirit, up until that point while he had grown in knowledge and goodstanding it is clear he did nothing extraodinary such as miracles etc. When Jesus visits his hometown they are unable to accept a Jesus that is the messiah or could do miracles from what they already knew of him as the carpenters son.

  but having access to holy spirit and doing miracles etc is not manifesting a hypostatic union since many people other than Jesus could use holy spirit.

  Reiniaa