Since this thread concerns the problem of the hypostatic union, I think it is also worth pointing out some early statements that bear on the question which antedate the much later theology of the HU. Ignatius of Antioch (early second century AD) referred to Jesus as "both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man (en anthrópó theos), true life in death, both from Mary and from God" (Ephesians 7:2). Earlier in the same epistle, he asked his readers to be "imitators of God since you took on new life through the blood of God (en haimati theou)" (1:1). The Testament of Simeon (middle second century AD) states that "God took a body (theos sóma labón) and eating with men saved men" (6:5-7), and "the Lord will raise up from Levi someone as a high priest and from Judah someone as a king, God and man (theon kai anthrópón)" (7:2). More docetic references however occur elsewhere, such as the references to "God playing the part of a man" (theos eis andra hupokrinomenos, in the Testament of Asher 7:2-3) and "appearing in the form of a man of humility" (phanénta morphéi anthrópou tapeinóseós, in Testament of Benjamin 10:7-8). Finally, in the writings of Melito of Sardis (middle of the second century AD), we read that "the lamb has become Son, the sheep man, and the man God (ho anthrópos theos)" and that "he rose from the dead as God, being by nature God and man (phusei theos ón kai anthrópos)" (Peri Pascha, 7-10).
The Son in two persons
by Deputy Dog 332 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jonathan dough
DD vexed: As I've said over and over, This thread is NOT about Christian doctrine.
I do not want to see any more long post anout the Trinity.
REPLY: That is a cowardly response. You can't talk about the hypostatic union outside of the context of the trinity. They are intertwined, and if you climbed down off of your self-serving high horse and took the time to read what great minds (not mind) have said about the Trinity and Christ instead of inventing your own theories in a caffeine induced stuppor you might learn something. We're not in kindergarden. All of these issues are locked together. You sound like a JW when you puff up like that. And who are you to be telling people what they can and can't post? You're no better than the cultish censoring elders when you do that. So from what I can tell you aren't a Christian since this isn't about Christian doctrine? What a ridiculous statement. Are you a proponent of Satananism then? Trying to start your own cult? Grow up, Pal. We're not playing checkers. Your distortions are no better than the Society's if they are not the truth. Economic trinity refers to the Hypostic Union that is Christ, for crying out loud. I'll make it easy for you:
http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#2
JD II
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PSacramento
Leolaia,
It seems that the early christain writers alreadt at that time, viewed and perhaps even debated the nature of Jesus's duality as God AND Man.
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Deputy Dog
Spike
You can find it right here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm
Jesus a Separate Creation
WHILE on earth, Jesus was a human, although a perfect one because it was God who transferred the life-force of Jesus to the womb of Mary. (Matthew 1:18-25) But that is not how he began. He himself declared that he had "descended from heaven." (John 3:13) So it was only natural that he would later say to his followers: "What if you should see the Son of man [Jesus] ascend to where he was before?"—John 6:62, NJB.
Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation.
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jonathan dough
Anybody, where in the Watchtower literature does it say that their Jesus is two persons? A quote, please.
They teach Jesus was a man, nothing more and nothing less (and therefore he can't be an angel).
Where is the second person?
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jonathan dough
DD said:
Spike
You can find it right here: http://www.watchtower.org/e/ti/index.htm
Jesus a Separate Creation
WHILE on earth, Jesus was a human, although a perfect one because it was God who transferred the life-force of Jesus to the womb of Mary. (Matthew 1:18-25) But that is not how he began. He himself declared that he had "descended from heaven." (John 3:13) So it was only natural that he would later say to his followers: "What if you should see the Son of man [Jesus] ascend to where he was before?"—John 6:62, NJB.
Thus, Jesus had an existence in heaven before coming to the earth. But was it as one of the persons in an almighty, eternal triune Godhead? No, for the Bible plainly states that in his prehuman existence, Jesus was a created spirit being, just as angels were spirit beings created by God. Neither the angels nor Jesus had existed before their creation.
RESPONSE: Nowhere in that quote does it say Jesus was 2 persons. No where. You can't even read into that.
JD II
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Deputy Dog
JD
One life Force= Jesus was a human being=Jesus was a created spirit being (named Michael)
One life force, two beings
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PSacramento
JD,
It seems that the Wt article that DD posted says that Jesus was Human, before that he was a spirit being whos life force was transferred into Mary an dthen after his death he became a spirt being again, yes?
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Deputy Dog
PS
An even bigger problem for the JWs is:
If Jesus is their mediator today, The "man" Christ Jesus. Is he a human being, a spirit being or both?
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PSacramento
So, if Jesus was a created being, the first one ever according to scripture, he was there from the very beginning and, according to scripture, everythign was created VIA Jesus, through Jesus, in other words God acted through Jesus to creat everything, including the Angels.
So, according to the WT Jesus is the same spirit being as the angels, even though angels were created BY GOD THROUGH JESUS.
So even though Angels (all of them) were created through Jesus and he existed long before they ever did, they are the same as Jesus, so Jesus is nothing more than any other spirit being? is that right?