Did Jesus ever claim Messiahship?

by AK - Jeff 81 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Chalam

  They ring hollow for me now

  Not these ones!

  16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

  It is strange, I discussed the very same passage with JWs at my house in relationship to Jesus who they claim was raised as a "spirit creature" i.e. not actually raised from the dead.

  They couldn't see Paul clearly was talking against people preaching exactly what they were doing!

  12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15 More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16 For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17 And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19 If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

  All the best, Stephen
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  bluecanary

  Stephen, I really enjoy seeing different interpretations of the scriptures. Keep on doing what you do, man.

  I want to know what you mean by your post. Did Jesus have to be raised as a human first? I don't want to hijack Jeff's thread--can we start a new one to discuss this?
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  moshe

  Well, it will soon be 2000 years that Jesus has been a no-show. It can't be proven, if Jesus' words are true , misunderstood or they have embellished later. As they say, time is the enemy of a false prophet. Also, Nark mentions that the word messiah could mean many things in the 1st century. I have seen the word messiah used in the same sentence with President Obama, too. Also, words change their meanings over time- just compare the Watchtower's definition of "truth" for the last 100 years.
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  XJW4EVR

  Why I don't respond to these queries:

  These words were not recorded until decades after he supposedly spoke them. Could it be that his disciples, now eagerly trying to establish Christianity as the approved way to worship God, just put words in his mouth perhaps? Just a thought.

  In other words, don't confuse me with the facts, my mind is already made up.
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  AK - Jeff

  Hijack away, BC. I gotta go to bed in a few minutes. Bandwidth is bandwidth as they say. Or do they say that? LOL Night all.

  Peace

  Jeff
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  AK - Jeff

  And yours isn't XJW? Geez. I just proposed a possiblility. Nothing more.

  Jeff
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  Chalam

  Hijack away, BC. I gotta go to bed in a few minutes. Bandwidth is bandwidth as they say. Or do they say that? LOL Night all.

  Peace

  Jeff

  Just made a new thread, took a while (!) so I missed this post...

  Resurrection of the dead, JWs and 1 Corinthians 15

  All the best,

  Stephen
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  Deputy Dog

  Well if we believe Luke (who thought Jesus was the Christ) and even if Jesus didn't say it (I believe he did), we have an angel saying it.

  Luke 2:11

  for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.

  Nark

  End-time figures of several kinds, whether angelic or human, "anointed" (according to the etymology of "Messiah" or "Christ") or not, on a "kingly" or "priestly" pattern (both kings and priests being called mashiach / khristos),

  I think it was the idea, that Jesus fit all three, Prophet, Priest, and King. This was reserved for the "Messiah". No one else quallified for all three.
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  OnTheWayOut

  I've only read page 1. Pardon me if I accidently post twice as I started this earlier, but I don't see it here.

  Could it be that his disciples, now eagerly trying to establish Christianity as the approved way to worship God, just put words in his mouth perhaps? Just a thought.

  Jeff

  If you start down that road, you will start investigating the flaws in the entire Bible, how the Bible developed, how the canon was chosen, and how archaeology, history, science all disagree with the Bible. Start thinking the words are not Jesus' words and soon you will doubt the whole Bible is the word of God. (Worked that way for me.)

  (both kings and priests being called mashiach / khristos)

  Great points, Nark. Here's my take. There are some words of Jesus circulating around. He said he was a son of God just as all men are sons of God. He wanted to be the "king of the Jews" in that he may have been groomed to lead a revolt against Roman authority. He saw how that would lead to his death and betrayed the revolt when he said to pay back Ceasar's things to Ceasar, or that was made up. Either way, he'd already gone too far to be ignored. I do believe the ride into Jerusalem on an ass was real. Jesus was helped to try to fulfill some supposed prophecies, not to be a god, but to be the son of David that would assume the rule, the messiahship. Writers (after 70 AD) who put together our 4 Gospels, well at least 3 of them, added to the prophecies fulfilled, and wrote the miracles and history from legends.

  Jesus was really a tool, but a smart tool. The Jesus you read of never existed, but he's way down inside that story somewhere. Whatever details I have wrong, does it really matter? The truth is buried in the past with memories. Heck, even American history of the 20th Century is "based on a true story" but loaded with legend and BS.
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  XJW4EVR

  And yours isn't XJW? Geez. I just proposed a possiblility. Nothing more.

  Look, I was an atheist before God saved me. However, I determined that the god I was rejecting was Jehovah of the Watchtower. If I was going to reject God, then I wanted to make sure that I was rejecting Him based on what and who He actually was, and not the Watchtower's Jehovah that I had been raised to worship. So, my presuppositions have been and are continually examined.