by AK - Jeff 81 Replies latest watchtower bible
If I was going to reject God, then I wanted to make sure that I was rejecting Him based on what and who He actually was, and not the Watchtower's Jehovah that I had been raised to worship.
All too often, I see atheists here arguing against Watchtower's idea of God. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I argue against their ideas too, but they seem to conceive of it as the only idea of God there is and seemingly close their minds to other possibilities.
BTS
but they seem to conceive of it as the only idea of God there is and seemingly close their minds to other possibilities.
...and let's not leave out the Christians who seem to conceive of only a Biblical God and seemingly close their minds to other possibilities.
John 4: 25 The woman said to him: “I know that Mes·si´ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one arrives, he will declare all things to us openly.” 26 Jesus said to her: “I who am speaking to you am he.”
If I was going to reject God, then I wanted to make sure that I was rejecting Him based on what and who He actually was, and not the Watchtower's Jehovah that I had been raised to worship.
All too often, I see atheists here arguing against Watchtower's idea of God. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I argue against their ideas too, but they seem to conceive of it as the only idea of God there is and seemingly close their minds to other possibilities.
BTS
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What BTS said. The God I knew as a Jehovah's Witnesses (and when I say 'knew', I mean through reading the Watchtower) is not the God I know have a relationship with through Christ.
If there probably isn't a God, it's probably best to check first before rejecting the probability out of hand...
but they seem to conceive of it as the only idea of God there is and seemingly close their minds to other possibilities.
...and let's not leave out the Christians who seem to conceive of only a Biblical God and seemingly close their minds to other possibilities.
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How does personal experience factor in, even if said personal experience seems to fly in the face of other possibilities or logic?
Interesting thoughts guys.
Another aspect of all this is obvious. Even if Jesus did claim Messiahship as his possession, what evidence shows that he has become such in reality? From what I see, though his life story has been powerful and world-influencing, it has not exceeded in power the story of other prophets and their Gods. The Muslim world is a powerful force in this world today, as it has been for a long time. A huge segment of the worlds' population is affected by the teachings of the prophet Mohammed. Yet Christians typically poo-poo that, or often live in near total ignorance of it.
All the worlds leading religions need a God/Prophet/Messiah/King/Hero to serve. And serve them they do. Believe everything that is written in their chosen Holy Writ they do. Defend that Hero they do. Insist that hero was real and sent from God they do.
Yet none of them can produce any evidence that substantially supports the assertion. For instance, nearly all Christians are just reduced to quoting a verse or two in support of their claims from the Bible. Or, they insist on some supernatural experience, generally undefinable and unverifiable, to complete the argument. Whilst I do not reject their zeal or their personal conviction, it fails to convince anyone who does not believe the Bible to be inspired and accurate. When those two efforts fail, they typically fall to the 'last resort' - insistence on faith. But without real evidence to support it, faith is not faith at all. It is credulous acceptance of something without honest proof.
All of that boils down to: I was raised in a Christian culture, and I believe the Christian teachings [in some form]. I have 'faith in them'.
I understand. To do so is to reject everlasting life and protection. That is not easy to do.
Jeff
What other prophets pointed to themselves as the solution other than Jesus? Mohammed, for example, points away from himself. Jesus tells us to come to him for life.
Also, while Islam is massive, Jesus' teachings are based on love; love your neighbour as yourself, love your enemy etc.
Faith isn't based on sight. Faith is based on promises. But the Bible tells us that a deposit of such promises is placed in the heart of a person who chooses to enter into a relationship with Jesus.
Christians don't insist on faith, the Bible does. And if the Bible is the Word of God, then this insistence comes from Jesus himself.
Even if all of this stuff about Jesus is a probability rather than hard, evidence-based fact, I just wonder if it bears close, personal examination, because if it's true, if we can have life and life to the full through Christ right now, plus eternal life as a guarantee, then it's serious stuff.
Romans 5: 1 Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we a have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2 through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we b rejoice in the hope of the glory of God. 3 Not only so, but we c also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; 4 perseverance, character; and character, hope. 5 And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.
Leolaia- I love reading your posts
AK-Jeff, great thread- thankyou.
Whether or not Jesus was/is the Messiah is not important to me- if he only said and did half of the things written about him, then he was a great man, much can be learned from his simple messages of love and much can be acomplished by following his examples- I have many freinds who call themselves ChristianDeists (but I'm going to start a different thread for that).
Whether or not Jesus was/is the Messiah is not important to me- if he only said and did half of the things written about him, then he was a great man, much can be learned from his simple messages of love and much can be acomplished by following his examples- I have many freinds who call themselves ChristianDeists (but I'm going to start a different thread for that).
This, though, is where it can get tricky; if Jesus was the Messiah, if he was the Son of God, if he was the Lamb of God who took away the sins of the world, if he's the way, the truth and the life, relegating him to just a great guy is dangerous and misses the point of the Gospel message.
While following his example can be good for us and our neighbour, recognising his position as mediator and going to him for forgiveness and life is key.
Minimus is the messiah. You need a holograph in the clouds to believe in him? He could probably do that. Then, you will believe that it's him? Heck, if you gave him airfare, he would probably visit you in person.
S
