by jonathan dough 115 Replies latest watchtower bible
AE,
You CAN'T separate God and Jesus, all the God has done he has done THROUGH Jesus, its not a question of disrespecting God by giving Jesus his rightful place, on the contrary, those that Honour Jesus, Honour the Father and those that don't honour Jesus can not/do not honour the father.
AE, that came across fine...no problem.
I do have to make a general comment to you on the verses you are using.
Again, keep this definition of the trinity in mind- the Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are 3 distinct persons who OPERATE as one being, one God. Just as you are a being in which only one person can subsist, God is infinite and 3 persons subsist in that being. I am not asking you to agree or disagree but to keep that definition in mind- because that is the correct definition.
That being said, you are throwing out verses showing the Fath and Son are two separate persons, therefore Jesus can not be God. This is built off of a faulty definition- the defintion of modalism which many of us do not subscribe to. I agree the Father is not the Son. In the verse you quoted on only worshipping Jehovah, Jesus did not say he didn't want worship or glory- he was simply denying worship to the Devil. Jesus accepted worship throught the gospels.
where is the original post where these comments were made?
It was late and I was rummaging. I'll try and track it down for you later.
JD II
John 5...Jesus says he does only what he beholds his Father doing..then he continues that his Father shows him ALL the things that he himself does. Jesus is telling the Jews that he does evrything the Father does, exactly as he does them. Who can do everything God does exactly as God without being God, or operating with the Father as God?
Later in John 5 Jesus said all should honor him EXACTLY as they honor the father.
Thanks issaac I will research...and i do like the way you kindly put things across.....
Being on this board we cant see whom we are talking too unless a pic is there,i dont know how to do that :( but imagine blonde hair,blue eyes....7stone (yup two stone underweight...not good) huge heart...and arms that want to hugs people. I go on the ministry to enjoy talking to people, i never ever force them into anything,i just want everyone to all be happy and have a smile on their face. I hate rows...and never will fall out with anyone,if friends have a bad day i brush it off....too much in life has happened and i now shut down from any form of stress....im not going gray for anyone lol
With this in mind please everyone..even Trev..who dont think likes me just know im not here to wind anyone up or cause problems...
and thanks Jb for your kind comments :)
By the way, while "godhead" is an acceptable translation of the word "theotes", and many translations use it, "deity" is also used and acceptable.
No. You are confusing theotes with theiotes, one of the JWs deceptions. Read this:
http://www.144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-6.html#29
Colossians 2:9 is convincing evidence of the divinity of Christ. It states of Christ that “in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Green’s Literal Translation). The Greek word for “Godhead” is theotes and means divinity. It “stresses deity, the state of being God (Strong and Vine’s, 115). It is to be distinguished from theiotes which refers to the attributes of God, his divine nature and properties and it is this definition which the Jehovah's Witnesses incorrectly attach to Col 2:9 when they claim that the Godhead there merely refers to His “divine qualities” (Reasoning, 420). This is manifestly incorrect according to Strong and Vine’s, and what the Jehovah's Witnesses are actually doing is swapping theiotes for theotes. Regarding the Godhead (theotes) at Colossians 2:9:
In Col 2:9, Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son. Theotes indicates the divine essence of Godhood, the personality of God; (Strong and Vines, 114). [Theotes] stresses deity, the state of being God. (ibid, 115).
(Theiotes, on the other hand), … refers to the attributes of God, His divine nature and properties. (Strong and Vine’s, 114)
Ok, kewl AE.
And we all like you. :)
AE: John 2 v19-22 clearly do not say Jesus resurrected HIMSELF.
Absolutely wrong. He specifically said he would raise up his own body. It is the God of the God-man who would do this, not the created flesh creature who Christians teach is not the Almighty and who bled on the cross.
Jesus made it clear that he would resurrect himself from the dead. Referring to his body Jesus said, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” (John 2:19-22). Acts 2:32 appears to contradict Jesus. It provides, “This Jesus God raised up” (see also Galatians 1:1). To resolve this inconsistency the Jehovah's Witnesses argue that John 2:19-22 does not really mean that Jesus would raise himself up, even though it says so, but that “Jesus himself was responsible for his resurrection” (Reasoning, 423,424). They rely on Luke 8:43-48 where the ill woman with the flow of blood was healed not because she healed herself but because she exercised faith in Christ’s power to heal (ibid., 423), and this exercise of faith made her responsible for the healing.
This analogy, however, is misplaced because John 10:17, 18 says that Christ’s power to resurrect himself was a command (NAB) or charge (RS) given to Jesus from the Father. Yes, he was responsible for his resurrection as the obedient servant on a mission, but he also exercised a power granted to Him to raise Himself from the dead, a power and command which the ill woman of Luke 8:43-48 was not given, and who was not the product of a hypostatic union of God and woman.
This is why the Father loves me, because I lay down my life in order to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down on my own. I have power to lay it down, and power to take it up again. This command I have received from my Father. (John 10:17, 18 NAB)
Jesus was not talking about some abstract “responsibility” for his resurrection as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim (Reasoning, 424). The language is unambiguous. He had the “power,” and he exercised it.
And AE...that is quite commendable you will research. If you research with no preconceived notions but simply to find truth, and what you already beleive is true, then you will simply have confirmed what you beleive and even more strongly. If you honestly research and find out what you beleive needs to be corrected, you should likewise be happy to have found what is true.
The important thing is to read all verses in context and let the Bible speak for itself, not 'cut off' or interrupt verses that seem to say something different from what you beleive by telling yourself it has to mean something else because a certain doctrine you beleive to be true or false.
ohn 5...Jesus says he does only what he beholds his Father doing..then he continues that his Father shows him ALL the things that he himself does. Jesus is telling the Jews that he does evrything the Father does, exactly as he does them. Who can do everything God does exactly as God without being God, or operating with the Father as God?
Later in John 5 Jesus said all should honor him EXACTLY as they honor the father.
And if I might add something, this shows no separation, no separate identity which is another false claim the anti-trinitarians make, teaching falsly that Christ was completely separate.
