Opening Pandora's Box - By Barbara Anderson (page 6)

Marvin Shilmer

JWoods writes:

“I meant something other than and beyond statistical conjecture.”

In the absence of a list of names certified by Watchtower and Coroners (or witchdoctors in underdeveloped nations) as dying because of abiding by Watchtower’s blood doctrine, what would you have researchers do other than extrapolate the risk from known and documented information? It appears you want the unattainable. Why?

Why don’t you do something with the information available rather than simply wishing for more and squawking at those who do something with current information? More is better, and welcome. But it does no good to minimize what we have now in the way of known and documented information. While we continue to pursue more in the way of information we should not fail to share what we have in the way of documented knowledge on the subject, along with what that information represents and why. This is, I believe, what Barbara Anderson is attempting to do as she weaves it into her personal beliefs and expressions based on her own life experience. What are you trying to do, exactly?

I do not intend to sound harsh. But for the life of me I am unable to figure out your point. It is frustrating.

Marvin Shilmer

PSacramento

When we make a statement like, "1000's of people die everywhere because they refuse to accept a blood transfusion", we must prove that statement.

I would have preferred it said "1000's at risk" or even "the possiblity of 1000's dying", but to make a flat out statement that 1000's DO die BEACUSE of it, that must be atleast clarified.

JWoods

What are you trying to do exactly?

Primarily, to verify or dismiss this important and far-reaching charge with some kind of hard documentation. Secondly, as Barbara tried to do before (with the lawsuit) - to encourage the use of it specifically to change this policy either legally or within the society itself because of legal fear.

I do not intend to sound harsh. But for the life of me I am unable to figure out your point. It is frustrating.

It is the point of the devil's advocate. It is a point like that of a lawyer who is preparing a witness for testimony at court.

If I, (and other) ex-JW people who hate the blood policy have some trouble with the statistical birth of this terrible (in the moral sense!) number, then how will this play to the inside world of possibly secretly anti-blood doctrine JW population themselves, or the completely non-understanding outside world?

And something else in the same spirit on the media: Remember Jonestown? That was, if I recall, about 450-odd followers plus a few visitors who were investigating the situation.

There could be a parallel if the JWs were (and probably are) causing the deaths of even that many innocent Witnesses - many of them only children. Per Year - think of that horrible & plausible possibility. A Jonestown, maybe two or more PER YEAR.

- If it is only hidden from the media because it happens once here and once there, then wouldn't this be a scoop to pull it all together and reveal it to the world? But again, it has to be solidly and undeniably believable and provable.

Marvin Shilmer

JWoods writes:

"If it is only hidden from the media because it happens once here and once there, then wouldn't this be a scoop to pull it all together and reveal it to the world? But again, it has to be solidly and undeniably believable and provable."

That is precisely what happens. It is for the same reason that the sudden death of 200 in an airline crash is headline news for days and weeks, but the deaths of hundreds of thousands in automobile accidents goes under the radar by comparison.

I understand and appreciate role playing as an advocate for the devil in order to flesh out a topic. But playing devil's advocate only helps if we end up doing something with what we do have in the way of information. Available information is more than sufficient to underpin Barbara's assertion of her belief. For her belief to be wrong it would require things as upside down as mortality rates in under-developed nations to be reverse from what they are, and it would require patients presenting with the same or worse risk factors to those documented in the evidence I cited to simply disappear from the radar screen. Got news for everyone. That ain't gonna happen. There is no doubt that thousands of people die annually as a result of Watchtower's blood doctrine. No doubt.

I do something with information at my disposal. What are you going to do?

Marvin Shilmer

PSacramento

Marvin,

While I appreciate your zeal, when you say there is "NO DOUBT, that THOUSANDS or people die ANNUALLY, ie: every year", you can't just say that and not back it up with SOME sort of evidence.

That's like me saying that no doubt millions of people die everywhere from falling down stairs, it is probably that truth, but without proof it is a basless comment.

Something that the WT is guilty of enough for all of us, we should strive to do better.

JWoods

What are you going to do?

Making the points made in this thread, for one. If nothing else, perhaps it will cause the issue to be better made in foundation and at least keep the people on this board talking about the issue and perhaps contribute facts on people who are known to have died from this doctrine.

Does this board have something like a sticky thread or such where we could put up the cases in memorial to the victims we discover?

Marvin Shilmer

PSacramento writes:

"While I appreciate your zeal, when you say there is "NO DOUBT, that THOUSANDS or people die ANNUALLY, ie: every year", you can't just say that and not back it up with SOME sort of evidence."

I agree, which is why on page two of this thread of discussion you will find evidence for making the claim. The notion that thousands die annually as a result of Watchtower's blood doctrine is not asserted from thin air. There is basis.

Marvin Shilmer

flipper

Good discussion guys - I'm enjoying your debating skills . This blood issue is certainly an important topic to keep discussing. Don't let me interrupt- carry on. Good job

PSacramento

Marvin, (may I call you Marvin?)

I guess you are referring to the list that Blondie put up? the one with 84 names over the span of decades?

While I appreciate that ALL the names can't be posted I do think that if we are going to make a bold statement like 1000's die EVERY YEAR, that we have to do better than that.

Sorry.

quietlyleaving

p sacramento I think Marvin was referring to this post of his on p 2 here below. I agree with his view that Barbara is making " a statement of her personal belief that thousands of people among the Witnesses die each year because of Watchtower’s blood doctrine". She is sharing her opinion and providing an estimate of how many she thinks die each year. If your estimate and JWoods' estimate differs markedly then fine. My own estimate is closer to Barbara's.

Can a person be said to have false opinions If you guys (J Woods &P Sacramento) think so then that is your opinion

If JWoods or anyone else reacts suspiciously to assertions made then I say, “More power to em!”

In her discourse Barbara interjected:

“Literally, thousands of Witnesses die each year when there is need for whole blood or some blood components that JWs don’t approve of.”

Assuming Barbara is speaking of Watchtower’s blood doctrine, it is not unrealistic to say thousands of Witnesses die each year as a result of it. This is what Barbara’s statement is to me: a statement of her personal belief that thousands of people among the Witnesses die each year because of Watchtower’s blood doctrine.

Based on an average mortality rate of 1 percent, around 100,000 individuals in the Witness population die each year. Because this population is at a higher risk because of refusing various blood products that would prevent premature death in certain instances then it is realistic to think that at least 2,000 or more deaths annually among this patient population is a result of refusing these products. The mortality rate would only have to increase 2/100th's to 1.02 percent to achieve the statistical number of 2,000 deaths.

The United States has approximately 1,500,000 individuals in the Witness community. Annually it would take only 6 Witness deaths in each state of the USA due to refusing blood to achieve an increase of 2/100th's of 1 percent mortality. (6!) It is not unrealistic to think this occurs assuming Witnesses are just as likely as everyone else to face need of transfusion that Watchtower forbids. Just like everyone else, Witnesses have babies, automobile accidents, accidents on the job, other blunt force traumas, cancers of all sorts, blood disorders, and the list goes on. And, guess what? Just like everyone else, Witnesses bleed. Lose enough blood and Witnesses will die just like anyone else. There is a point at which only a transfusion of some Watchtower forbidden blood product will prevent such a death. If refused, these patients die. End of story. They check out.

That Witnesses face extraordinary mortality as a result of Watchtower’s blood doctrine is established in vetted literature. Here is a link where this was presented a few years ago on this forum (hope it works): http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/medical/135674/1/Deaths-Due-to-Watchtower-Blood-Doctrine-Statistic-on-one-patient-populat

This year another study from the Netherlands demonstrated that Witnesses presenting with maternity have a mortality rate 6 times higher than the national average purely because of refusing blood forbidden by Watchtower. (Ref. Van Wolfswinkel et al, Maternal mortality and serious maternal morbidity in Jehovah’s witnesses in the Netherlands, BJOG An International Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology, 2009 p. 1103)

Though I understand, embrace and endorse suspicion, in this case I am not the least suspicious of Barbara’s believe on this point. It is likely that thousands die among those in the worldwide community of Witnesses because of Watchtower’s blood doctrine.

Marvin Shilmer

Opening Pandora's Box - By Barbara Anderson

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