by Narkissos 86 Replies latest jw friends
Ok so, although, ot jews didn't have a clear picture of what exactly the afterlife was, they defintrly believed in it. I find that interesting, because the wt claims that immortality of the soul is not taught in the ot. They claim the same for the nt, however, it is harder to deny it's teaching, there.
S
Nark
I'm sure it does. It's remarkable that in the OT the perspective of peaceful death (being reunited with one's ancestors, in old age, surrounded by one's children and grandchildren who are, in effect, the dying person's future), disappears once the notion of personal salvation (resurrection etc.) comes to the fore.
So I guess that means your idea about Paul and universal Calvinism (our discussion about Romans) doesn't work very well.
1Co 15:50
I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53 For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." 55 "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?" 56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. 58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
Hi Nark. Is death friend to the millions who have lost their lives from being murdered and having their lives cut short? Is there justice? Do the chips just fall where they fall with no consquences to the murders and to those murdered well is it just is what it is.
Or, are you talking about the so-called normal life span only and not all the a to z things that happen to individuals that cost them their normal life span, like growing through the years until death claims us when we are worn out physically and so away we go. Moving out as others move in.
I think of it this way,before 1945 I did not exist ( not that I am aware of ) and when I die, I will simply not exist again. Is this fatalistic?
Are all belief system really a hidden fear that once life ends its all over? Does a belief system help one get through this reality.
I think so. How say you? I know that finally I have come to the realization that I don't know and what I think does not matter, only that I know death will come one day, whether friend or foe, sleep the everlasting sleep.
Nark I don't expect answers. These are just some of my thoughts that I push back in my mind that keep on surfacing with questions like yours.
Blueblades
I often wonder that, IF god is a cruel and uncaring as some say he is (RE: the OT) that perhaps his immortality could be the reason.
I had the "strict monotheistic" version of "God" (the God that neither dies, as in incarnation, nor identifies with that which dies, as in pantheism or panentheism) in the back of my mind when I described the "immortal monster"...
Also, against snowbird's quotation of 1 Corinthians 15 which the title of this thread alluded to, I'm reminded of St. Francis of Assisi thanking God for "our sister natural death"...
Paul has similar views in his regard for a death that would "free: him to be with his Lord.
DD: at least Paul's view of salvation was not a negation of death, nor the endless conservation of the same (contrary to the JW view which, ironically, blames Christendom for perpetuating the "serpent's lie," you will not die: they actually say you will not die more than anybody else!).
Not only his view of resurrection in 1 Corinthians implied a radical change from the earthly to the spiritual; but even more importantly, his theology of salvation in Romans depends on death symbolism and identity substitution throughout. Actually, you are not saved. You die with Christ and share in his life, within his body. Or, in the words of Philippians: you are dead, he lives in you. Big difference. Paul's theology instrumentalises death and the end of "self" it implies instead of suppressing it.
To blueblades (not a reply ;)):
"Why did I not die at birth,
come forth from the womb and expire?
Why were there knees to receive me,
or breasts for me to suck?
Now I would be lying down and quiet;
I would be asleep; then I would be at rest
with kings and counselors of the earth
who rebuild ruins for themselves,
or with princes who have gold,
who fill their houses with silver.
Or why was I not buried like a stillborn child,
like an infant that never sees the light?
There the wicked cease from troubling,
and there the weary are at rest.
There the prisoners are at ease together;
they do not hear the voice of the taskmaster.
The small and the great are there,
and the slaves are free from their masters.
"Why is light given to one in misery,
and life to the bitter in soul,
who long for death, but it does not come,
and dig for it more than for hidden treasures;
who rejoice exceedingly,
and are glad when they find the grave?
Why is light given to one who cannot see the way,
whom God has fenced in?
Job 3:10ff.
Nark
DD: at least Paul's view of salvation was not a negation of death, nor the endless conservation of the same (contrary to the JW view which, ironically, blames Christendom for perpetuating the "serpent's lie," you will not die: they actually say you will not die more than anybody else!).
That's the funny thing. In Pauls (and Calvin's) view they did die, and on the very day they ate.
Actually, you are not saved. You die with Christ and share in his life, within his body. Or, in the words of Philippians: you are dead, he lives in you. Big difference. Paul's theology instrumentalises death and the end of "self" it implies instead of suppressing it.
What about the verses about the ressurection I included in my quote 50-55?
One wonders what Christianities view of death would have been if Revelation was NOT accepted as Canon.
One in Job's situation would rather not of been born. This I can understand when all is lost and suffering is your lot.
Blueblades
