for the hard of hearing and forgetful:
So what religion would you be if you had been born in Iraq?
Betsy, you're losing all credibility. Some would be Muslim but what's your point? How does that prove there is no God?
What do you make of the Alpha Course?
by boyzone 88 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jonathan dough
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PSacramento
I think that besty's point is that people don't think about coming to God naturally, that something like culture is what send them to it and depending on where you grow up, that will be the prodominate experience.
I think he is saying that "God" is not a natural by product of thought but a learned "reaction".
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jonathan dough
I think that besty's point is that people don't think about coming to God naturally, that something like culture is what send them to it and depending on where you grow up, that will be the prodominate experience.
I think he is saying that "God" is not a natural by product of thought but a learned "reaction".
And that is enough to prove there is no God? What is wrong about being taught about God to learn of Him? How does that disprove His existence? And, how did prehistoric man, if there is such a thing and/or however that might be defined, start to believe in a higher being if there was no one there to teach him about that superior being? I'm talking about the first one, the one left to his own devices. I'm not talking about "knowing" God in detail but believing in him. I'm not sure what you mean by "learned reaction" unless you just mean something learned.
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jonathan dough
that people don't think about coming to God naturally, that something like culture is what send them to it and depending on where you grow up, that will be the prodominate experience.
I suspect there are some people in the world who come to God out of terror for their well being or the loss of loved ones even if they have convinced themselves or have accepted atheism. Of course if you're raised in a Muslim country you'll probably start out as Muslim, but so what? What is the point of this line of thought? It's not really going anywhere. I also now you're not arguing this PS but trying to paraphrase Beesty's argument.
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besty
Betsy, you're losing all credibility. Some would be Muslim but what's your point? How does that prove there is no God?
It seems difficult (impossible) for you to answer the question. I asked what religion 'you' would be, not what religion 'some' would be.
Let me just tell you the answer seeing as you can't bring yourself to admit it out loud :-)
You would be Muslim. 97% likely. 99.9% likely if you were born in Aghanistan.
The point is obvious - your religious outcome is an accident of birth. I don't doubt your personal conviction or sincerity of faith - just don't tell me its any more likely to be true than any other belief in magic invisible characters, just because you happened to be born in Kansas, not Kabul.
It's an accident of birth - a coincidence if you like - same as JW's knocking your door after praying for help - thankfully the OP has come to the correct conclusion on the matter.
The reason you have a problem admitting the coincidental nature of your religious outcome is the diminishing effect that has on the way you feel about yourself. Its much more difficult to be personally convinced when you concede that any and all other religions have equal justification to believe themselves to be right about their definitions.
Coincidence, accident, call it what you will. But not any more likely to be your particular definition that is correct.
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besty
My advice is this, carry on praying, read your bible and listen out for His "voice". It almost certainly won't be audible but you will hear from Him.
If you read the Koran in English, does Allah have an American accent?
That has always bothered me.
Thanks.
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cantleave
If you read the Koran in English, does Allah have an American accent?
No he speaks with a strong Dublin accent!
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AnnOMaly
Here's an extract from Twisted Scriptures: Breaking Free From Churches That Abuse by Mary Alice Chrnalogar. It's been a while since I read it but boyzone's OP reminded me of this part:
"'Joan' told me she was thinking of suicide when she prayed to God for help. Suddenly there was a knock at the door. Two Jehovah's Witnesses stood there smiling. Joan's mind jumped to the conclusion that God wanted her in this group because they had rescued her. It's possible God used them to help her in her need - but should she jump to the conclusion that she must believe everything this group teaches because they saved her life?
"I often hear such phrases as, 'This is where I met the Lord.' Then no matter how bad things become, these disciples won't even think about leaving. Some tell me of a healing that took place, which led them to stay in the group even though they were having problems there. Even members of dangerous groups tell me that they stay in their group because of healings and conversions. Finding the Lord in a particular group or receiving a healing does not prove that this is where God wants you to stay. The good that you found is wonderful, but you need to realize that evil can also exist in a place where good things happen. (Eccl. 3:16 NASB)." - p.176
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jonathan dough
any other belief in magic invisible characters,
Your explanation is a bit convoluted, a bit tortured, but I'll try to figure out what you're trying to say. My question is, how does this prove there is no God? That's your position, try to defend that. Even the Muslims believe in God. The fact that someone is born into a religion isn't the end of the discussion. What matters is whether they can change, convert. Not each and every one is branded for life with that particular faith.
Its much more difficult to be personally convinced when you concede that any and all other religions have equal justification to believe themselves to be right about their definitions.
I don't believe that, if I understand you correctly. Of course every other religion has the right to "believe themselves to be right about their definitions" if you mean they have a right to believe what they want to believe. But that's not the issue. The issue is whether someone born into a particular religion is stuck there forever and can't change or convert. And nothing you have said, not one thing, proves that there is no God, which is really what we're talking about.
The reason some people don't answer you is that you say silly things and it's usually not worth the effort to type a response. But I'll play your game for now. For instance when you said
It seems difficult (impossible) for you to answer the question. I asked what religion 'you' would be, not what religion 'some' would be.
Let me just tell you the answer seeing as you can't bring yourself to admit it out loud :-)
You would be Muslim. 97% likely. 99.9% likely if you were born in Aghanistan.
You're not thinking clearly and you're spinning your wheels in the mud, arguing for its own sake. First, it doesn't make any difference if it is "someone" or "me" because we are dealing with a principle and that principle would be the same regardles of who we are talking about. And secondly, since you want to split hairs, if it was ME born in Iraq or Afghanistan I'd be Christian, just like my parents who raised me. I'm assuming I get to keep my birth mother and birth family. And if I was a Muslim born into a Muslim family then it's not ME but it really is "someone" else. And if that hypothetical character were born into a Muslim family he'd at least believe in God, which you don't. And let's not forget that your Muslim friend might even be raised into that 3 percent of Christian Muslims in Iraq, and he would likewise at least concede the existence of his creator.
How much education do you have if I might ask? Did you get through high school? Have a college degree? Just curious. Because what you wrote below would never get you out of the 10th grade. And I'm not trying to be mean, but you're stoking a fire that doesn't exist and you want to be shown right to save face, nothing more. And, I suspect getting in the last word keeps you up at night.
Its much more difficult to be personally convinced when you concede that any and all other religions have equal justification to believe themselves to be right about their definitions.
You still haven't shown how your position, whatever that might be, proves there is no God. Will one of you atheists please step in and give this frustrated individual a hand? Maybe you could reword his argument for us. Furthermore:
The reason you have a problem admitting the coincidental nature of your religious outcome
I have no problem with admitting this as I've said before. Of course the odds are if I'm born in the West I'd probably be Christian. So what? Therefore there is no God?What exactly is your point? In English, please.
JD II
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besty
J Dough - you begin your post by telling me my position and end your post by asking me my position, and in the middle make numerous ad hominems...nice little structure you got going on there :-)
Anyways just for clarity the OP was about the coincidental nature, or otherwise, of praying to god and receiving an 'answer' in the form of JW's knocking your door.
So my position on this thread is not to deny the existence of god, but to answer the OP's question - was the visit he received coincidental. See my 1st post on this thread if you are interested in my answer.
You made a reference to 'He' and I asked you to define who 'He' was. You politely invited me to 'take a wild guess', and my subsequent line of questioning was to ascertain if you understood your religion was an accident of birth.
You do understand that it is, and replied
Of course the odds are if I'm born in the West I'd probably be Christian. So what?
So what? Indeed. So what? Just an accident, a coincidence. Thats all. Nothing special.
Everyone can have a religion. Or a faith. Or a personal conviction. Or a belief.
So what?
Here's what - they all have exactly the same probability of being false. Your place of birth does not add any special variation to the probability of your religion being incorrect.
Hence my original reply to the OP - the only rational conclusion possible is 'coincidence'. Any other answer is irrational.
Anyways, would it be alright to quote you one more time, just for old times sake?
How can a newborn infant have any belief system at all?
PS - what sort of argumentation technique were you deploying by questioning and insulting my education?
Out of politeness I will answer - I am resident in the USA on an H1B Visa - Google it if interested, here's the link....