That's true Psac. I wonder what Paul meant by them not being able to inherit God's kingdom then...
What Are Your Thoughts On The Apostle Paul?
by cognac 109 Replies latest jw friends
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Deputy Dog
PS
But Paul was the first to put it in writing, arugably.
Actually
Gen 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
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PSacramento
Cognac,
The issue of inherting God's kingdom has always been one of repentance.
Paul did far more horrific things than homosexuality, he hunted down and participated in the torture and death of Christians, yet Jesus appeared to him and made him an apostle to the gentiles.
We are all sinners, we just have to face it and do our best NOT to repeat it, although I am not sure how that applies to homosexuality, I don't know of people are born that way or if it is a choice, I just don't know enough about it.
DD,
Ah yes, well done, thanks.
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cognac
hmmm, that raises some interesting questions. I'm going to look at Matt 21:31 and the scripture that states flesh and blood won't make it into the kingdom. Maybe that will help shed some light on this. I say the one about flesh and blood not entering into the kingdom because humans would have to turn into a spirit before they can enter. That doesn't mean that humans won't enter at all just because at that point they are flesh and blood.
However, I could be misapplying the point of that scripture. I have to look it up...
Also, Matt. 21:31 leads me to believe even harlots would enter - just last. But, I gotta go really read the surrounding text...
Also, I did a quick lookup of this and some say that it could actually mean "male prostitution"... hmmm, I'm gonna have to research this...
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isaacaustin
Cog..in reading 1 Cor 15 on flesh and blood ou will see the following verses define flesh and blood not as literal flesh and blood but corruption.
Another interesting point- the risen Jesus was flesh and bone- not blood. His blood drained out at his death. So it can be said in a literal way flaesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom- flesh and bone will.
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cognac
THanks Isaac! You are very well versed!
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Deputy Dog
Isaac
I think part of the problem with that verse is about the word "inherit". Only those born of the Spirit can "inherit" the Kingdom. I don't know that "form" in heaven, is what is being addressed here. IMHO
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AGuest
May you ALL have peace!
I agree with PSacramento's initial response: you have to take the "good" from Paul... and overlook/discard the rest.
Why is this? We have to remember WHY Paul was called to be an apostle (to the nations). Many, including the WTBTS, attribute it to his zeal. Nothing could be farther from the truth. Paul was called... to SUFFER for the Christ... because he was bloodguilty. Those he had helped put to death... and particularly Stephen... WOULD have done the work he was called to do. Since they could not now go... he had to go IN THEIR PLACE. Acts 6:8-7:60; 8:1, 3; 9:1, 2, 4-6, 15, 16
BUT... he was trained as a Pharisee and thus was quite concerned with "law." Even he, then, had to overcome some "strongly entrenched things." And he did. Most of the "negative" stuff you from him about women is due not to the Law [Covenant], but Roman law at the time. For example, under Roman rule, women were not permitted to SPEAK in public places such as synagogues. Since the Jews were looking to have 'christians' silenced (even put to death)... and the Romans LOVED bloodsport... he knew the danger of even having women in such places: what if the Spirit MOVED them to speak? It couldn't be risked. So, he admonished that the women were to learn at home: their husbands would go the public places, get the info, and then bring it back to them. That really is ALL there was to that.
As for his attempt to institute disfellowshipping, Paul admitted he was "jealous" for the Corinthians. He felt that since he had "promsised them as a chaste virgin," he would somehow be held responsible for any "uncleanliness." So, he tried to teach that they should "cleanse" the congregation by removing anyone "unclean" [under the Old Law]. The division this caused, however, was great... because no one had heard Christ teach such a thing, but rather, what is found at Matthew 18:15-17... which includes, possibly, a rebuke by the congregation. This forced Paul to reconsider his admonition. Ultimately, the "rebuke by the many"... which is in line with what our Lord taught... was "enough"... and so he told the congregation to welcome the man back.
Obviously, Paul had a bit of a self-esteem problem: a little too much of it, perhaps. He felt it necessary to defend himself, his faith, and his position in the congregation on several occasions. But that is understandable, considering his Pharisaical education. It is like some of US... who although we have left the WTBTS... STILL believe that Armageddon and the great tribulation is one and the same. Or that it is "wrong" to celebrate birthdays, etc. Or that, even though we no longer associate with them, we need to attach ourselves to SOME form of religion. Or that the Bible... is the word of God. Strongly entrenched things.
All of this need to be kept in mind when reading "Paul's" letters (and some are correct: all of the letters attributed to him were not actally dictated by him, let alone written by him. I say "dictated" because Paul didn't writen most, if any, of them - he was mostly blind and so used "secretaries." Although, at one point he did add his hand in order to authenticate the letter. Some of the secretaries, however - Silvanus, Timothy, etc. - included their own thoughts).
So, how do we know what to "follow" and what to reject? Two ways:
1. The easiest: ask God, through Christ... and then LISTEN to what the Holy Spirit tells us, the TRUTH of which you spirit will "bear witness" to
2. The not so easy (because of the tampering and false stylus of the scribes): "test" the inspired expression (and even the uninspired ones) on the basis of:
a. What Christ himself said/taught; and/or
b. Love
If your spirit "bears witness" with the Holy Spirit that what is being taught is TRUE... then you should PUT FAITH in in. If the teaching has its roots and basis in LOVE... then it is from God. If it its roots are NOT founded in love... it cannot be from God.
Some (certainly, the WTBTS) might ask, "Well, isn't keeping the congregation clean an act of love?" It might appear that way; however, expelling ANYONE is NOT. That sheep is then "scattered"... held AWAY from the "fold"... and subject to being devoured by the wolves. An example? Peter literally DENIED Christ, which our Lord said, "Anyone who is ashamed of me in front of men, I will be ashamed of him before my Father (not an exact quote)." Yet, Christ did not reject Peter, but even appeared to him and wished him peace! Why? Because, as he said, "I have not lost one, not one." Excluding Judas, who CHOSE to leave... my Lord has never let one of his sheep become lost. He goes and FINDS them... which is why HE... looked for, called, and hung out with SINNERS.
Christ set the pattern... and gave us a COMMAND fo the course to follow should anyone sin... with regard to something that can effect the entire congregation. It is recorded at Matthew 18:15-17. And we KNOW that the entire congregation should be involved, were warranted, and NOT just a body of 3-4 elders, etc., because he ALSO said, "Do not you be called Leaders, for ONE is your Leader..." and "whereas YOU... are all BROTHERS." Matthew 23:8-12 (NOTE: Please do not quote me here, as I have paraphrased rather than directly quoted. But the POINT is the same.)
And what about when someone sins against you DIRECTLY? The command from our Christ is to forgive... "up to seventy-seven times." Trained Pharisee that he was, dear Paul... in his zeal and jealousy for the congregration (and not necessarily the people IN it)... forgot both of these command. Almost to the detriment of that congregation and its members.
BOTTOM line: we must all choose who we will "follow"... and, to their spiritual detriment... many choose Paul (or Peter, the "first pope"). Why, though? Because, these walk by SIGHT... and not by FAITH. They need to SEE the Law... written. So, they look to the writings in the Bible... rather than looking to the ONE held up by God, just as Moses held up the copper serpent in the wilderness... Christ. And it causes SO much CONFUSION!! Although all SAY they belong to Christ, who they truly follow is manifest by their doctines... and actions.
As Paul "grew up" into a "full grown man" in Christ... hechanged some of both: his doctrines... and his actions. As have I. As have some of you.
Remember, "the PATH... of the righteous one... is like a bright light... that is getting LIGHTER... and LIGHTER... until the day is firmly established." Thus, when Paul was a babe... he spoke as a babe. Even when he thought he had grown past being a babe, he still hadn't caught up with some of the others. And even when he caught up, he didn't have full authority (our Lord did not directly blow holy spirit on him) so, he consulted with them (the 12) on matters (and THEY... consulted the Holy Spirit!). And even they were still learning... for they were teaching circumcision... until Paul and Barnabas caem to them with the matter... and Peter corroborated what the Spirit told HIM.
Dear PSacamento... "hunka-chunka"? "Smoking sausage"? "Munching carpet "???? LOLOLOLOLOL! The stuff on this thread has indeed ran the gamut! LOLOLOLOL!
I bid you ALL peace... and ears to hear when the Spirit and the Bride say, to those wishing, and thirsting: "Come! Take life's water... the holy spirit from God, which is poured out from the innermost parts of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... free!"
Your servant, as I am servant to ALL those of the Household of God, Israel, and those who with - previously called, now being called, and yet to be called - and a slave of Christ,
SA
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cognac
AGuest - You have given me a lot to ponder over. Thank-you for your comments!
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AGuest
the risen Jesus was flesh and bone- not blood. His blood drained out at his death. So it can be said in a literal way flaesh and blood will not inherit the kingdom- flesh and bone will.
Flesh with IT's blood... cannot inherit/enter the kingdom. Flesh... with GOD'S blood... holy spirit... can enter and inherit. Both Adham and Christ had flesh... with GOD'S blood (Genesis 2:7; Matthew 1:20). In this way, they could go in and out between the physical and spirit realms. By means of their FATHER'S spirit... HIS blood that was in them. They were half-brothers: same father (the MOST Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies)... but different mothers:
1. Adham, earthling/physical/terrestrial man, whose "mother" was the earth... the physical realm (outside the garden)... represented by "Hagar," the SLAVE woman... whose children are "born" in the manner of the flesh... according to the flesh... and so are fleshly, and thus SLAVES [to the physical realm and to the flesh];
2. Christ, heavenly/spirit/celestial man, whose "mother" is Jerusalem Above... the SPIRIT realm (inside the garden)... represented by "Sarah," the FREE woman... whose children are "born" in the manner of the SPIRIT... according to a PROMISE... and so are SPIRITUAL, and thus are FREE [from the bounds and limitations of the physical realm... and flesh with its blood]
3. And Christ, earthling/physicial/terrestrial man, whose mother was Mary, an earthly/physical woman and from whom he inherited his sinFUL vessel of flesh (the "corruptible" and mortal) which... unlike sinLESS flesh (the "INcorrutible" and immortal)... was able to hold sin (ours)... and death (his)... in it.
And so, yes, flesh... AND bone... can and will inherit the kingdom... because the spirit... is IN the bone. LIFE... is in the BLOOD... and BLOOD... is (physically) "made" in the bones... and (spiritually) resides... in the bones. Leviticus 17:11, 14; Ezekiel 37:5, 6, 14
That is why although EVERY other part of a physical body returns to the dust... the bone does not. True, it may be ground down to dust and so return that way, but it does not decay to the dust on its own. And it is why "passing through the fire"... whether a live person... or a dead person... is something that NEVER came up into the heart of the MOST Holy One of Israel. The bones of the dead were buried, even returned to the homeland to be buried. But NEVER burned. Think, little children...
We can transcend flesh with ITS blood now, however, by meas of God's holy spirit that is in US. True, we cannot do it to the extent that Christ can, or Adham did... or the angels do. We can only do so PARTIALLY. But it is how ones like Moses, Ezekiel, Elijah, Daniel, Jeremiah, David, John and others... including your servant, myself... are able to see and hear what we have/do. We are "in spirit"... inspired. By means of God's blood IN us... holy spirit. Through this... we can "enter" now, to some degree. Our vision may be hazy... and our hearing somewhat muffled... but it is enough. We can still "get the picture."
I bid YOU all peace... and the SAME spirit... so that you, too, may have ears to hear... and eyes to see... that which cannot be see, heard, felt, tasted or smelled with the PHYSICAL bodies we possess... flesh with ITS blood... if you so wish it.
YOUR servant and a [fellow] slave of Christ,
SA