by Styxx 80 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
A first post, dedicated to calling some in our community "pathetic"?
Classy.
What was really classy was Jeff's reply. Once again Jeff impresses me with his demeanor, sensibleness and style.
Me, I would have been much more succinct in my reply to a hit and run troll. I would have just said; Fuck off Styxx
Jeff, you took far more pains to answer this than I would have.
I too have seen some wild first posts, but an ad-hominem on somebody who has already done a mea culpa on their eldership is a new one for me.
I am hoping & expecting for this poster to do a little backing off in post #2.
I am hoping & expecting for this poster to do a little backing off in post #2.
I am relatively new too - but I feel comfortable saying I hope Styxx posts back in this thread relatively quickly to respond to some of the very well-thought out posts here. Otherwise, his future posts will be looked upon rather skeptically (at least by me) I felt like Undercover when I first read it - as a former Elder I would tell Styxx to F.O.A.D., but I am curious why he felt so compelled not to "single out" Jeff and then blast him.
Most of us young men in the organization were prodded, pushed, and planned for these type of roles. Bethelite, Pioneer, MS, Elder, etc.....Those titles hold much weight in the Witness world. It means you are "spiritually" minded, it means you are "theocratic" and of course, it tugs at the emotions because everyone around you - family, friends, and others in the congregation are SO proud of you.
As a young man serving as an elder, you are thrown into a host of situations that you are not always prepared to handle. There are professional counselors who do not hear some of the terrible things that Elders have to deal with. Yes, there can be a sense of power and authority, but imperfect people are going to be prone to those things, despite their motives.
One of the reasons I quit is because I cared too much and got tired of seeing people dumped on and beat down by the "religion" part of the faith. I still look back with some decisions with regret, but not for too long since I know I tried to always have the persons' best interests at heart, even if that meant applying a WT rule that I no longer agree with.
Jesus' disciples obvious were very ambitious and zealous. Jesus had to constantly counsel them.The WT uses the world zeal often in reference to "reaching out" in the congregation.
Ambition and Zeal are very closely related - its a fine line to cross at times.
Yes, Besty, you just asked a question. I wasn't referring to that. Check what other poster asked and tell me if he made a honest question or was trying to make fun and belittle Styxx. That's the 'level of debate' that makes me go away for a few weeks.
About age, you are exactly right; ages gives us wisdom (well.. not always). But certainly I like to think than nearing 50 I'm not the know-it-all pr**k i was at 25. However, I disagree with whomever won't even listen to somebody, just because of young-age. What makes a 20ish elder dumb is being a dumb-JW-Elder, not being 26! If a 20 something kid is at my porch to tell me something, I listen, then disagree. What if the elder 'counseling' or shepherding one is 60? Would that make me listen?
But, hey, That's just me! Like ATJ I highly regret how much of a militant I was and how much damage I had a part in. I'd like to write about it one of these days. Maybe I will.
Reading the posts of other former elders here (willyloman really nailed it) makes ME feel better.
I hope it isn't lost on anyone reading this that there is real guilt for elders who left. One of the best things I can do on a board like this is say "Hey, we may have been tools, but we were tools used by the borg."
Being a former JW and moving on isn't about getting together and comparing what you did, titles you had, etc. Yet, there are many who benefit from hearing from those who had responsibilities and were considered "higher ups".
I esp appreciated this point, it is oh so true:
Most of us young men in the organization were prodded, pushed, and planned for these type of roles. Bethelite, Pioneer, MS, Elder, etc.....Those titles hold much weight in the Witness world. It means you are "spiritually" minded, it means you are "theocratic" and of course, it tugs at the emotions because everyone around you - family, friends, and others in the congregation are SO proud of you.
This is the great divide, the JW caste system. Make it and you are in the club. Fail to, or held back (being held back because the higher up's are pricks happens waaaaay too much) and you are a JW 2nd class citizen. Luckily, you might also realize sooner then the higher ups that the whole JW teachings are myth and very self serving.
I agree with winstonchurchill
About age, you are exactly right; ages gives us wisdom (well.. not always). But certainly I like to think than nearing 50 I'm not the know-it-all pr**k i was at 25. However, I disagree with whomever won't even listen to somebody, just because of young-age. What makes a 20ish elder dumb is being a dumb-JW-Elder, not being 26! If a 20 something kid is at my porch to tell me something, I listen, then disagree. What if the elder 'counseling' or shepherding one is 60? Would that make me listen?
Ironically for me, I value life experience. I didn't when I was "reaching out" at 26 and didn't have it, so I minimized it. Now that I have some, I value it in others. So if a 20 something has been through a few things and these experiences offer wisdom, then yeah, I will listen.
The proof is in the pudding on that score...
And as WC said, it isn't being 26, its being an elder that dispenses GB bullsh*t that causes problems. Being 26 just makes it easier to spew the JW company line. It gets harder the older you get, because you start to, deep down, know better....
I always found it odd that religions, including the JWs, put 20 something men in the position of 'Elder'. How can a young man have any sort of real life skills to serve in a role that demands they possess the experience, patience, kindness, and wisdom that comes with age (hence the title). Isn't this a contradiction?
winston: "Your best argument against Styxx is that at 19 he joined a cult? Last time I checked, this place is full of people who, at one point in their lives 'joined the cult'."
For me, too, I was just asking a question. And I think it is a valid question. Obviously, Styxx chose to join the cult and allowed him/herself to be victimized in some unexplained way. I don't recall any dubs taking guns to the door and forcing people to join... no, they saved that for those of us that were "born in" and faced an ultimatum in our early teens.
This thread just feels like shadowboxing. My guess is that Styxx is some guy that joined at 19 and expected to be an elder by 26 and GB by 32. Since he didn't become the great cult leader in a matter of months, the evil elders are all abusive and have to answer to Jehovah for not signing everything over to him. Yeah, I'd seen that type before. The opening post sounds like he's filled with envy because of Jeff's rapid rise in the bOrg.
I hope I'm wrong and that Styxx will clarify. Until then, I think I'll blame Styxx for making me stay in Bethel and waste all those years of my life. Abusive baptized publishers!
Maybe Styxx just decided to drop his "bomb" and run.
Having been an elder for 30 years myself, I can agree with most of the comments here from former elders. I was appointed at 27, which at the time, by the way, was the minimum age to be appointed and even then under "special" circumstances. The special part was that a brother showed unusual maturity.
What I remember from those early years still haunts me today. When the elder arrangement started (I believe it was in 1972 or 71) it was a shift from a one-man head of the congregation to a body. This was quite a challenge since many of the appointed elders were younger and had no experience in dealing with the problems of the publishers. Also, I saw many congregations around me embroiled in heated arguments among the potential elders-to-be and the "Service Commitee". The congregation I was in even held "voting" sessions by secret ballot of the enitre congregation during the meetings to determine who should be an elder.
In the early 70's and for many years thereafter it was felt and even taught that when publishers had problems it was because they were spiritually weak. While we, as elders, tried to help the publishers with real pyschological problems we were not psychologists nor were we allowed to direct publishers to get "outside" (Satanic, worldly philosphy, etc.) help. One of our District Overseers (Condillis) even said to us that if anyone has problems they will ALL be solved by "pioneering".
My point is this; no matter what the attitude of an individual elder is, whether he is in it for glory or to be of real help, he is limited by what he is told to do by "mother" (WTBTS). This is where the real abuse starts, when they are bound by an organizations' rules on pedophiles, disfellowshipping, showing mercy, definitions of immorality, etc. they become puppets.
I saw far too many disfellowshipped who needed help. I saw far too many elders who would make a single call on a publisher needing help and never return to follow up on them. Perhaps they thought that "one call does it all"!
Bottom line is, the elders are not trained to really help the flock. They are trained to enforce the rules, that's why they have to read their "rule book" before every judicial hearing. While they now can recommend a publisher get outside help it becomes a defeat for them when they do so. They failed to cure the publisher using a spiritual solution.
Trying to blame us, as former elders, for damage done to the flock only highlights the lack of training and real direction provided by the FDS. Ultimately, for the most part, we were obedient to "mother" and did what we were told until we couldn't take the crap any longer. Styxx should be grateful, our leaving means that we can't cause any more "damage".
oldseeker
I was an elder for 5 of the last 6 years I was in the cult. It was drummed into my head at a young age, starting at age 4 when my mom, then my dad, got dunked, to "reach out." I was 21 when I first was appointed MS, but 34 when I was appointed an elder. So I had life experience....but no real life experience (ie, outside of Dubland).... and I was just as obnoxious as many.
I have told many of my experiences on this board, and am (slowly) polishing off the total story now for FreeMinds......suffice it to say, that I hit many of the steps on the so-called Theocratic Career Ladder (auxiliary pioneer, regular pioneer, temp bethel, MS, elder, MTS grad, Patient Visitation Group member, and other activities that were not as visible). I did not do these things because I thought any better of myself; quite to the contrary, I couldn't figure out why I kept getting the positions. As I say in my story, I often had the rug pulled out from under me by others in power who were jealous of my meteroric rise and stalled me a couple of times. Each time I "humbly waited on Jehovah" and climbed the ladder again....and again...and again....
...it was never about power for me...it was about helping others and being of use to the Organization (thus a help to Jehovah, or so I thought). Yes, as someone else wrote, being secretary was all that and then some..and I liked being "in the know" but I also liked staying in the shadows....in any organization, the real power lies with such positions, not the headliner (...side note...does anyone really think Obama has any power? or Bush before him? No...it was the underlings in the background that have been in DC for years, decades, that are the real power brokers).... it is true in politics and it is true in the Society.
When I realized that, as a whole, elders were doing more harm than good, I realized it was time to quit fighting the prevailing winds that were trying to oust me and let them. December 2006 I was removed as an elder...I had grounds to fight it and would have won...I knew the game and how to manipulate the system in my favor because of my MTS training, but why?
As to the OP....I respect your right to your opinion...but the disrespectful tone toward Jeff shows a serious lack of understanding and lack of class. I do not know how long you lurked before you signed on back on the 2nd...but you had 27 days to think about your maiden post.... if you had read Jeff's posting history, you would not have written as you did. I'd like to see you come back online and engage Jeff properly.
SnakesInTheTower (Rich, of the "thank goodness I am not an elder anymore" Sheep Class)
I think that the OP needs to realize that the former elders here who have left and are telling our stories (yes, I too was a young elder and an assistance congregation servant before that) -
Are, like Jeff - manifestly part of the solution, not part of the problem.
For what it is worth, it was not at all unusual to have people in their 20s on the servant body both before and after elders. Some were good, some were indeed pricks. The reality was that where I came from in Oklahoma, most of the smaller congregations could not have survived without at least 2 or 3 elders, and that meant usually appointing the young pioneers.
