Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.

by jonathan dough 204 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  jonathan dough

  Why not? I'll start with John 14:8-10

  Scriptural support for the triune nature of God, and the gradual recognition that Jesus Christ, the Word incarnate (John 1:1), was and is God, can be found throughout the Bible. The evidence is abundant and unfolds like a flower, foreshadowed in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament. The evidence is explicit and implicit as the following discussion of some of the many supporting scriptural verses illustrates.
  
  21) Phillip said to Jesus, "Show us the Father" - (John 14:8-10)
  
  One of Christ’s most emphatic declarations that he was, and is, God, is found at John 14:8-10.

  Phillip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and we shall be satisfied.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you do not know me, Phillip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in me?”

  Any claim by the Jehovah's Witnesses that Jesus thought of himself here as nothing more than a man is absurd. Of course, the Jehovah's Witnesses argue that Jesus could not have meant this because Jesus could be seen but God is an invisible spirit and no one has seen God at any time. Therefore Jesus could not be God. But again they fail to understand the two-fold nature of the divine person of Christ, the hypostatic union, and the indwelling of the Persons of the Trinity (see section 5). It is not the created humanity of Christ that is the Father. Jesus was referring to the divine person who assumed a human nature when He answered Phillip, and in this Person dwelt the fullness of the Godhead (Colossians 2:9).

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-5.html#21
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  frankiespeakin

  I think you like to make fruitless arguments about the nature of a fictitious character in a story book.

  Ask yourself this questions:

  Since the New Testament gives very vague descriptions that can be interpreted in many ways depending on ones religious indoctrination and education in the languages and history of the oldest manuscripts would it be that important in what you believe Jesus to be?

  I know many religions make a big deal about trivia concerning correct belief and falling in line with what that particular religion teaches. Do you really think a Omnipotent being who is supposed to have created everything in this vast universe composed of billions of galaxies which in turn are composed of billions of suns really cares whether or not you believe Jesus is god? Do you really think such a being to be so petty as to make getting the correct answer a matter of salvation? Or is it just a trick religion uses to get you hooked on their brand of theology and keep you coming back for more while they pa$$ the plate for your money?

  Is religion really just a snare and a racket designed to fleece you of your money time and possessions?
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  JosephMalik

  Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God

  Jonatathan,

  It does not matter if Jesus is God or that some called him God at times. Why? Because the word God is not identity. It has other and simpler meanings like this one found in Strong's: 4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way 4a) God's representative or viceregent 4a1) of magistrates and judges. And since the scriptures use this word in this way then there is no basis for ignoring it or applying this word in ways that Trinitarians do. There is no need to run all over the Bible in order to establish a doctrine that Jesus did not teach and a doctrine that is not one of the commandments our Lord gave us to keep. To say nothing about the fact that such teachings were not a part Jewish history or Christian history that came later until all the Apostles that were the foundations for the Christian church were dead.

  Joseph
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  jonathan dough

  I probably should have explained myself. This is directed more to JWs who do not believe Jesus was/is God, as the Society has devoted significant resources refuting this fundamental concept that is accepted by the vast majority of Christian faiths. In that context, yes, it is important to examine the flip-side of the argument as well - whether Jesus was just a man as they claim, but nothing could be further from the truth. Christ claimed the opposite, going so far as to take the title of the divine name, the I AM. In that sense he did preach it as essential truth, saying, if you do not believe that he is the I Am you will die in your sins.

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index.html#1
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  PSacramento

  I am reading the works of the Apostolic fathers and it amzes me the difference in what they wrote VS the teachings of Paul in his letters and the teachings of Peter, James and the Gospels.

  SOme of the stuff is the same, obviously, but already you can start seeing the development of doctrine that was not present in the works of the Gospels or the apostles.
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  jonathan dough

  I am reading the works of the Apostolic fathers and it amzes me the difference in what they wrote VS the teachings of Paul in his letters and the teachings of Peter, James and the Gospels.

  SOme of the stuff is the same, obviously, but already you can start seeing the development of doctrine that was not present in the works of the Gospels or the apostles.

  But let's not forget that most of what the Fathers wrote and thought did not make it into official church doctrine.

  "As elemental Trinitarianism of the NT period has to be distinguished carefully from the gradually emerging Trinitarian dogma, so must Trinitarian dogma (doctrine in the strictest sense) be distinguished carefully from Trinitarian theology. The dogma in its preparatory stages had been merely theology: efforts on the part of individuals and schools to interpret and understand revealed mystery. Then, as certain of these efforts became assimilated through authoritative decision into the teaching of the Church, some of what had heretofore been theology was from now on also dogma of faith. But note some; for much else - in Tertullian and Origen, Athanasius and the Cappadocians, Augustine, Anselm, Aquinas - would never receive such ratification, never attain such clear-cut status as Christian doctrine. (Catholic Encyclopedia, 302)"

  http://144000.110mb.com/trinity/index-3.html#12
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  digderidoo

  As a JW i was never able to get my head around Isaiah 9:6

  For to us a child is born,
  to us a son is given,
  and the government will be on his shoulders.
  And he will be called
  Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
  Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

  Paul
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  trueblue

  Mathew 22: 36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37 He said to him: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 The second, like it, is this, ‘You must love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments the whole Law hangs, and the Prophets.”

  Ecclesiastes 12: 12 As regards anything besides these, my son, take a warning: To the making of many books there is no end, and much devotion [to them] is wearisome to the flesh. 13 The conclusion of the matter, everything having been heard, is: Fear the [true] God and keep his commandments. For this is the whole [obligation] of man. 14 For the [true] God himself will bring every sort of work into the judgment in relation

  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xjPODksI08
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  lovelylil2

  Good text Jonathan,

  I like this one too because it shows that the Jews of Jesus day knew full Jesus claimed equality with the father;

  John 5:18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.

  The WT states about this verse that the Jews misunderstood Jesus and thought he said he was God, but the text clearly shows they fully understood that Jesus said he was "God's son", and that THIS would make him equal to God.

  And also the infamous John 1:1

  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

  who is the Word? Jesus. This text clearly states that Jesus was not only "with" God but indeed was God.

  I never understood the above text because like the WT says "how can you be with someone and be that someone?", well if they reason that way then they will have to insist that the Apostle John, while influenced by Holy Spirit, was wrong. Because he clearly states what he does in John 1:1. But since leaving the WT and reading the NT, you start to understand the Nature of Jesus. And he was fully man and fully God, in his very nature. And that is HOW John could make the above statement.

  The WT simply does not understand the nature of the Lord Jesus and that in position, while he is lower than the father (being the son) but in his very nature, he is God himself. These are two different things. And Jesus willingly submits himself to the father but is totally equal to him. Ask youself this Q; if a human can only beget a human, how can a God beget less than God? Also if Jesus is only "a god" then he must be a false God because there is only one true God.

  Peace, Lilly
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  PSacramento

  JD, from what I read so far, I am at the sheppard of Hermas right now, the Apostolic Fathers had a "hard on" for Church heirachy, talk about conflict of interest.

  Outside of Polycarp they seemed to think that NOTHING could be done without a bishop that nothig was valid without being ina full blown ceremony, that the bishop was supreme.

  Directly in conflict with what Jesus taught when he said "none of you shall be greater than the other" or when he said " where 2 or 3 gather I will be there".

  Heck, so far in the sheppard of Hermas The name Jesus hasn't even been mentioned and I am half through it !

  It amazes me how little time it took for certain views to start being developed, a step back to the Jewish tradtions in many ways.

  Digderidoo,

  When Isaiah says that Jesus will be called a Mighty God and everlasting Father, he is quite correct, for Jesus was called that.

  In the Apostolic Fathers, Clement and Ignatius called Jesus "God".