Isaac, out of respect for Lady Lee's suggestion, contribute or STFU.
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough 204 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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isaacaustin
ok designs...so then to stay on topic and understand your last statement- if God is to be conceived as omnipotent, omniscient, omipresent, etc he makes everything Dvine? Meaning everything in existance is divine?
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PSacramento
If you conceive of God or the Divine as being ubiquitous, omnipresent, transcendant, and immanent then that All Filling Being makes everything divine.
Walk gently on the earth
A valid point and yes, all things have the potential to be divine, though not to be "deity".
God gave us a HS that lives in Us and if we "raise" ourselves to the level that God knows we can, yes we can indeed "reclaim" our divinity.
And yes, Earth is divine, all that God has touched and loved is Divine.
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jonathan dough
God is in my shoe?
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jonathan dough
Here's another reason the JWs' "Word" the Christ can't be just a man and not created, and that he was, and is, God. It involves the Holy Spirit.
The baptismal formula at Matthew 28:19 reflects in one sentence the Trinitarian doctrine of three Persons as one by virtue of the singular “name” into which Christian believers are to be baptized. By means of logical deduction Christ must be eternal in accordance with the baptismal formula.
For example, the Jehovah's Witnesses would have Christians baptized under three distinct and separate authorities which is scripturally unfounded. If they were right, and the Son is separate from the Father, the Holy Spirit must also be separate from the Father, but that in turn would imply that the Father was without His electrical current or authority and He is not all powerful. If, on the other hand, the Holy Spirit is inseparable from the Father then neither can the Son be separate from the Father because Christ is the Spirit.
To illustrate further, Paul taught at Romans 8:9-11 that the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ and 2 Corinthians 3:17 teaches that Jehovah God (or the Lord) is the Spirit (NWT; “the Lord is the Spirit” RSV). And, it is this Spirit, the Holy Spirit, that dwells within the Christian believer. Thus, there are not two separate Spirits that reside within, God’s and Christ’s, but one Spirit, according to Ephesians 4:4.
There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. (Ephesians 4:4-6)
But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Sprit of God really dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness. If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you. (Romans 9:8-11 RSV)
Jehovah is the spirit. (2 Corinthians 3:17 NWT; “the Lord is the Spirit” RSV)
However, if, as the Jehovah's Witnesses falsely teach, the preexistent Christ is a created creature only, then the Holy Spirit must also have been created and accordingly there would have been a time when there was no Holy Spirit and therefore God would have lacked power and authority and would not have been omnipotent, according to their theory. But, since the Holy Spirit is eternal, which the Jehovah's Witnesses must concede, and the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ, and this Spirit is the Holy Spirit, Christ the Word must be eternal.
Not surprisingly, the Jehovah’s Witnesses changed Romans 8:10 by inserting the word “union,” so that Christ is not in the believer, but only in union with the believer, writing: “But if Christ is in union with you, the body indeed is dead on account of sin …” NWT).
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jonathan dough
And another reason why Jesus was, and is, God, and not just a man or a created angel.
The fullness of the Godhead dwells inseparably in Jesus - (Colossians 2:9); He is the very imprint of God’s being - (Hebrews 1:3)
Colossians 2:9 is convincing evidence of the divinity of Christ. It states of Christ that “in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily” (Green’s Literal Translation). The Greek word for “Godhead” is theotes and means divinity. It “stresses deity, the state of being God (Strong and Vine’s, 115). It is to be distinguished from theiotes which refers to the attributes of God, his divine nature and properties and it is this definition which the Jehovah's Witnesses incorrectly attach to Col 2:9 when they claim that the Godhead there merely refers to His “divine qualities” (Reasoning, 420). This is manifestly incorrect according to Strong and Vine’s, and what the Jehovah's Witnesses are actually doing is swapping theiotes for theotes. Regarding the Godhead (theotes) at Colossians 2:9:
In Col 2:9, Paul is declaring that in the Son there dwells all the fullness of absolute Godhead; they were no mere rays of divine glory which gilded him, lighting up His Person for a season and with a splendor not His own; but He was, and is, absolute and perfect God; and the apostle uses theotes to express this essential and personal Godhead of the Son. Theotes indicates the divine essence of Godhood, the personality of God; (Strong and Vines, 114). [Theotes] stresses deity, the state of being God. (ibid, 115).
(Theiotes, on the other hand), … refers to the attributes of God, His divine nature and properties. (Strong and Vine’s, 114)
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designs
Isaac, I was just following the logic of the Trinity, obviously what we call God or a Supreme Being is beyond anyone's ability to grasp in a comprehensive way. Science helps in identifying some parts of reality but much is still left as unknown.
Some of the things said of Jesus or the Word can be transfered to anything animate or inanimate since from that perspective all things have come from God's eternity and being. A person is then left with options such as Jesus has more of this God thing than other entities, but since the Trinity explains God as being among other things indivisible and omnipresent it becomes a matter of symantics to divide out angels and humans or anything as having less or more of the God thing than the Word.
If we are going with the theory that God is everywhere and that by being Filled with God makes Jesus God then the logic of it is that what else would not be God by that same definition, or as my old Theology teacher use to say 'where is God not?'.
In terms of our being Witnesses and all of that history, Russell felt that God was locative and his personable Spirit was everywhere. When the Aid Book came out in the late 60's an attempt was made to move God out of a location and to have some loosely defined distinction between God's 'spirit' and 'power', you can read it under the section on holy spirit.
All cultures have grappled with how reality came into existence and what sustains all of this. At least now for many of us we have the freedom of mind to explore it all and set a new course in life.
Take care.
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Deputy Dog
Isaac
To be fair to designs, I can see his perspective. I don't have a problem with it for the most part, though it (like many things about God) can't be fully explained.
Jonathan I'm glad God is in my shoe. I'm also at peace with the God of both good and evil.
I think Paul adresses it (maybe not directly) in Romans 9
Romans 9:17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH." 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory,
I know it's probably not enough for designs, but it works for me.
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isaacaustin
Designs, Allow me a bit of time to ponder what you said. Thanks for the input.
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Deputy Dog
designs
If we are going with the theory that God is everywhere and that by being Filled with God makes Jesus God then the logic of it is that what else would not be God by that same definition, or as my old Theology teacher use to say 'where is God not?'.
I don't think most trinitarians would go with that theory.