What the theologian is trying to argue is that Essence is less God than Presence and that is a bit difficult, 89%/111%?. It just becomes an assertion to get out of a sticky corner.
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
by jonathan dough 204 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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jonathan dough
What the theologian is trying to argue ...
Which theologian? And how does this prove that Jesus was/is NOT God?
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designs
The theologians you have been quoting.
On whether Jesus is God or not the original point was simple- everything that is said of Jesus as the Word being God by a Trinitarian argument would by logic apply to everything else. Bishop Arius, Newton, the early Jewish christian communities had other solutions for the Word which in philosophical and metaphysical terms carry as much weight as any other theology.
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jonathan dough
The theologians you have been quoting.
On whether Jesus is God or not the original point was simple- everything that is said of Jesus as the Word being God by a Trinitarian argument would by logic apply to everything else. Bishop Arius, Newton, the early Jewish christian communities had other solutions for the Word which in philosophical and metaphysical terms carry as much weight as any other theology.
Depends on what they are saying because the Church gave weight more to some than to others. From the church's point of view I just don't see Trinitarian logic as you interpret it as overturning their conviction that Jesus was, and is, God, not to mention the many proof texts they rely on. Theologians like you and others like you might want to stretch it that far, but it's forcing a square peg in a round hole, and forces a theory on the church which they resoundly reject.
everything that is said of Jesus as the Word being God by a Trinitarian argument would by logic apply to everything else
Everything? I don't think so.
At this point I think we're beating a dead horse. I'm gonna go watch the Saints lose.
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designs
'the church'., a particular powerful branch. I guess that is one of the biggest problems, by force they, the Trinitarian churches, put other followers of Jesus to death as heretics for having ideas different from theirs. Ideas that were actually closer to Judaism.
Squashing freedom of thought, that is something the xjw community knows all to well. Well its been a good exchange, there is not much left to add and some good Football are about to begin, enjoy your Sunday.
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frankiespeakin
Jonath,
The theme:
Examining Scripture to see if Jesus was, and is, God.
I think something that has been sorely overlooked on this topic is "examining the scriptures" to see if Jesus was or is God is the historical accuracy of scripture, the evolution of scripture, the qualifications of scripture, the contradiction or harmony of scripture. For surely these also need to be examined if we are going to be thoroughly examining scripture.
To proceed on the presumed assumption that all of the bible is accurate and the infallible word of god could hardly be logical starting point if we are really going to examine scripture to find out the truth about Jesus and his relationship to God.
I think Designs has some very valid points to make in the direction he has chosen to examine scripture as well.
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jeremiahjs
Jesus is the first creation and the last from God himself. Hence 'First and last'. And Jesus is the Son of God making him born or created by God; making Jesus not God but the Son of God. Saying Jesus is God is a lie. On Judjement Day you can ask Jesus sitting at God's right hand if he is God and then you will find your truth.
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frankiespeakin
Jery,
Saying Jesus is God is a lie. On Judjement Day you can ask Jesus sitting at God's right hand if he is God and then you will find your truth.
I guess what your saying is you think it is a lie according to your religious indoctrination, and that when we die Jesus will answer that question. Well that's sounds all well and good but that is a pretty big assumption isn't it? Your assuming an awful lot here: 1) that we will be conscious after death and 2)that we will all be be judged, 3)At the moment of being judged we will be given an opportunity to speak and ask questions 4)All questions asked will be answered and 5) Jesus will be there to answer our questions. How convenient. Did you ever stop and think about how much of what you believe is based not on fact but stories you have heard and repeated without giving it much thought?
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jonathan dough
by force they, the Trinitarian churches, put other followers of Jesus to death as heretics for having ideas different from theirs.
I tend to keep the theory separate from what bad people do. No justification for that.But that's a different topic.
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jonathan dough
I think something that has been sorely overlooked on this topic is "examining the scriptures" to see if Jesus was or is God is the historical accuracy of scripture, the evolution of scripture, the qualifications of scripture, the contradiction or harmony of scripture. For surely these also need to be examined if we are going to be thoroughly examining scripture.
The thread is addressed primarily toward those individuals who believe Scripture is God's word, particularly JWs who have no problem with that. I'm not sure why anyone else would be interested in examining those verses.