Immortal Soul? Impossible!

by wannabe 114 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • wannabe
    wannabe

    Immortal Soul? Impossible!

    Why would I say, for the soul to be Immortal, would be impossible? I'll begin this discussion by pointing to the words of the Apostle Paul at Romans 5:12 where he tells us this:

    12 "Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned." {Romans 5:12 NIV}—

    For many Centuries now all Mankind has been dying because of the sin of one Man, Adam! We notice, Paul tells us that two things were handed down, to all Mankind through the process of inheritance. Sin, and death, through sin. So the first Man, Adam, passed on to Mankind all he had to pass on.

    Does the Genesis account, in any way, indicate, that Adam, in any way, was capable of passing on immortality, to the Human-Race? The reason being, if the soul was to be immortal, Adam himself would have had to pass that on to mankind. Being as he was the very first Man. It could not have come any other way, than but through Adam. The question is, could it have? Lets look at where the trouble all began, and see if we can find a suitable answer to this question. First notice how Adam was created:

    7 "And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul." {Genesis 2:7 21st C KJV} So Adam wasn't given a Soul, he was created as such; a living being, or person.

    The Apostle Paul agreed with this account, as evidenced by his following words:

    45 "And so it is written: "The first man Adam was made a living soul." The last Adam was made a quickening Spirit." {1 Corinthians 15:45 {21st CKJV}

    Two inspired Bible Writers are in complete agreeance, as to just how Adam was created, and they do not tell us he was given a soul, they tell us he was a Soul, and created as such. A person or being. Now how do we know, he couldn't have been immortal?

    By looking closely at the Genesis account of creation where all the trouble first began, and how, and why it began.

    15 "The LORD God took the man and placed him in the garden of Eden to work it and watch over it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree of the garden, 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for on the day you eat from it, you will certainly die. "{Genesis 2:15-17 HCSB} But what happened?

    1 "Now the serpent was the most cunning of all the wild animals that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God really say, 'You can't eat from any tree in the garden?"

    2 The woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit from the trees in the garden. 3 But about the fruit of the tree in the middle of the garden, God said, 'You must not eat it or touch it, or you will die.

    4 "No! You will not die," the serpent said to the woman. 5 "In fact, God knows that when you eat it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." 6 Then the woman saw that the tree was good for food and delightful to look at, and that it was desirable for obtaining wisdom. So she took some of its fruit and ate [it]; she also gave [some] to her husband, [who was] with her, and he ate [it]. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves." {Genesis 3:1-7 HCSB}

    The Fact Jehovah told them that they would die if they touched that Tree, tells us that they were Mortal beings, because, as it says, they would die! That could never apply to someone with immortality, because they can never die! Someone Mortal could, and does every day, because of that sin. {Luke 20:36}

    The sentence the Judge of all the earth handed down at that time tells us quite a bit as well; for note these following words of Jehovah's:

    14 "Then the LORD God said to the serpent: {Revelation 12:9}
    Because you have done this,
    you are cursed more than any livestock
    and more than any wild animal.
    You will move on your belly
    and eat dust all the days of your life.

    15 I will put hostility between you and the woman,
    and between your seed and her seed.
    He will strike your head,
    and you will strike his heel.

    16 He said to the woman:I will intensify your labor pains;
    you will bear children in anguish.
    Your desire will be for your husband,
    yet he will dominate you.

    17 And He said to Adam, "Because you listened to your wife's voice and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'Do not eat from it':
    The ground is cursed because of you.
    You will eat from it by means of painful labor
    all the days of your life.

    18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
    and you will eat the plants of the field.

    19 You will eat bread by the sweat of your brow
    until you return to the ground,
    since you were taken from it.
    For you are dust,
    and you will return to dust."
    {Genesis 3:14-19 HCSB}

    Did Jehovah here sentence Adam, to any fiery Hot place,that today, they call Hell? Remember, this was a righteous judicial decision Jehovah was handing down as the Judge of all the earth, so what he decreed, is what would occur. Where was Adam sentenced to? Back to where he came from, correct? Adam returned to the dust as Jehovah said he would. That is where any who have ever died, returned to. They are sleeping in the dust of the earth Jehovah said through the pen of the prophet Daniel. {Daniel 12:1,2} {Genesis 18:25}

    All, now waiting until they hear the voice of the Son of God and come forth from the common grave of dead mankind to a resurrection back to life once more:

    28 "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation." {John 5:28,29 KJV } In the Graves! Notice that!

    No part of Man is immortal! Man is a Mortal being, subject to death, and when his life course has run the finish, he dies and back to his dust he goes, just as did the first man Adam did. Just as we all will. There's no pain, or conciousness in the grave to which we will all go.

    5 "For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten. 10 Whatever you do, do well. For when you go to the grave, there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom." {Ecclesiestes 9:5,10 NLT}

    29 "But if you turn away from them, they panic.
    When you take away their breath,they die and turn again to dust." {Psalms 104:29 NLT}

    3"Trust not in princes -- in a son of man, For he hath no deliverance. 4 His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth, In that day have his thoughts perished." {Psalms 146:3,4 YLT} ]

    One must be conscious and in control of all of his thought processs to experience pain. One with no breath, who knows nothing, whose thoughts have perished, who has in fact returned to dust, could not possibly feel any pain, as would be the case was one to be in a fiery hot place, where you would feel pain was that teaching to be true! Isn't it nice, that it isn't true? That it isn't even possible! As is man having an immortal soul! I've shown that, that, too is impossible!

    When you think about it, if a perfect man, who sinned, and brought death and imperfection, on all mankind, and was only sentenced to return to the dust from which he came, would it not be a terrible misscariage of justice, if those who inherit from Adam, sin and death, and imperfection, through no fault of their own, to be sentenced to a burning hot hell for endless eternity, receiving even more punishment, than Adam received? That would be a terrible travesty of justice, and impossible for Jehovah to do, in the light of his own words at Deuteronomy 32:4 ; which words are:

    4 "He is the Rock; his deeds are perfect.Everything he does is just and fair.He is a faithful God who does no wrong;
    how just and upright he is!: {Deuteronomy 32:4 NLT}

    Scripturally, and logically, it is impossible for man to have an immortal soul. As pointed pointed out, man is a Mortal Being subject to the process of dying, and we have seen that for many Centuries, and see it every day of our lives, as Adam's sin continues to wreak havok on the Human Race, through the sin and death inherited from the first man. "Immortal Soul?" "Impossible!"

    Fortunately that sitution will soon be rectified, as John will tell us now:

    4 "He will wipe every tear from their eyes, and there will be no more death or sorrow or crying or pain. All these things are gone forever." {Revelation 21:4 NLT}

    Was there ever really to be a literal fiery hot place called Hell, there would still be, sorrow, crying, and pain; but in, that, all of those things are gone forever, there never was, nor ever could be, an Immortal Soul that can suffer endless torments, in any fiery place titled Hell! That teaching, is a satanic lie! A doctrine of Demons! {1 Timothy 4:1-5} "YOU WILL NOT POSITIVELY DIE!" The Serpent said to the Woman! Wannabe

  • carla
    carla

    If you read everything through the glasses of the wt that is what you will see. Have you read the bible as a whole rather than attempting to piece together scripts that fit your premise? Truly read it? front to back? and not the perverted NWT of course.

  • Mad Sweeney
    Mad Sweeney

    I tend to agree that an immortal soul is impossible but not for any of the reasons in this thread. I try to disbelieve all extraordinary claims that are without proof.

  • Mary
    Mary
    Scripturally, and logically, it is impossible for man to have an immortal soul.

    Uh, no it's not. For myself, I'm not sure if I even believe in God anymore, but going solely on the scriptures, there is plenty of evidence that the bible teaches that the spirit survives death. You're reading the scriptures in an extremely selective viewpoint. For example, you use the scriputre in Genesis 2:7 where is says that "the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."

    I doubt that life on earth actually started this way, but let's say it did. What you ignore is the obvious: The body of Adam was nothing until God infused the 'breath of life' or spirit into him. Then he 'became a living soul.' This is supported by the scripture that says "as the body without spirit is dead, so too, faith without works is dead." According to the scriptures: body (or flesh) + spirit = living soul.

    In Genesis 35:18, we read this about the soul departing from Rachel when she died, making the 'unconsciousness' an impossibility:

    And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing , (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

    1 Samuel 28:3-25 refers to the well known example of of Saul summoning the spirit of Samuel through the witch of Endor. It refers to Saul putting away mediums - obviously, if there were mediums in business, the common people must have thought that the dead were alive somewhere and able to be summoned. Saul obviously believed that the spirit he called up was indeed Samuel. The Bible states nothing to the contrary except in the NWT where it adds quotations around the name 'Samuel', in order to give the idea that it was only a demon pretending to be Samuel.

    Eccless. 12:7 talks about what happens to man's spirit when the body dies: it returns to God who made it. Can you please explain how the spirit is unconscious while it remains with God?

    The next reference is somewhat controversial as it's not part of the official biblical canon. It's in 2 Maccabees 15:11-16, which shows the deceased Jewish high priest Onias, and Jeremiah praying for the people of Judah. They are dead, but praying for the Jews! Hmmm.....how exactly is that possible if you're simply "unconscious" when you're dead??? Even if you don't accept this as biblical, it reveals that the Jews believed that the dead could intercede through prayer to God. Maccabees originally was part of major Jewish literature, part of the Septuagint, & is referred to by Paul in Hebrews 11:35.

    Next, we deal with one of the most troublesome passages for Witnesses: the famous story of Lazarus and the Rich Man (Luke 16:19-31). Witnesses try to claim that this is nothing more than a parable and should not be taken literally. However, since when did Jesus ever use a parable based on a (supposed) false doctrine? He didn't. Luke, as a historian, wrote literally and factually, not cryptically. Whenever parables were used, real-life things were always used: fishing nets, mustard trees, lamps, slaves & masters. There's absolutely nothing to indicate that the illustration of the Rich Man and Lazarus was based on a 'false doctrine' and is yet another scripture that supports the idea that something survives death. When we look at this story, there is no need to interpret it at all - it is quite clear. The apparent meaning doesn't need to be explained away. The rich man died, as did Lazarus. The rich man went to Hades, the realm of the dead. Lazarus was taken to Abraham's bosom - paradise. And if the angels carried Lazarus off to the part of the believers that had left their bodies and are now "at home with the Lord" (see 2 Corinthians 5:1-10), then these people must be alive somewhere with God in heaven or in Paradise. If this were only figurative, why does Lazarus need angels to carry him?

    Matthew 10:28 clearly tells us that the body dies while the spirit lives on. "Do not fear those who can kill the body but cannot kill the soul." Clearly, this scripture does not support the idea of an 'unconscious soul' but is saying that when a person kills another person, the body dies but not the soul.

    One verse sometimes used to refute all this is John 3:13, where it says that "no-one has ascended into heaven." That does not at all contradict the teaching that the dead were conscious because at that time no man had ascended to heaven. The Jews taught that the dead were all in Sheol, and then Christians taught that up to the time of the resurrection, people were in a place called Paradise (Sheol) awaiting entry into heaven. 1 Peter 3:19 tells us that Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison" (Sheol). If this "prison" referred to the place where there was no hope then there was no use preaching to them was there?

    Then there's the scripture in Luke where Jesus promises the Evildoer "Truly I say unto you today you will be with me in paradise."

    Witnesses immediately jump in here to claim that the punctuation should be put after the word "today", not "you" because in the original Greek language, there was no punctuation. However, this is nothing more than a desperate attempt to try and twist the scriptures into saying something they don't really mean. If you have a Concordance and you look up every instance where Jesus (or anyone) says "Truly, truly, I say unto you" or "Amen, Amen, I say unto you" or any of the various translations of this phrase, you can see that in none of them do you ever find anyone saying, "Amen, Amen, I say unto you today." The expression is always "Amen, amen, I say unto you, (and then the promise or statement of fact)." But because this blows their doctrine out of the water, they simply re-write the scriptures to suit their own needs.

    Next is 1 Corinthians 15: 44 where it is speaking of the resurrection. Nowhere does it imply that you are "unconscious" but specifically states that when a person dies, their spirit goes on: "...It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body."

    Pretty clear there. It simply states that man has both a physical body and a spiritual one.

    The WTS loves to use Eccles. 9:5 where it says, '...for the dead know nothing at all, neither do the have any more wages for the memory of them is forgotten." Once again, this is a very selective reading and the entire book of Ecclesiastes is more or less a very depressed viewpoint and a revealing insight into Solomon's state of mind at the time. Basically, Ecclesiastes is an autobiography of Solomon at a time in his life when he had forgotten about God and was in a very depressed state. He had lost his faith (much like I have right now) and his thinking was from the standpoint of a person who could only think as a mortal man who has become very jaded thinks. His were human viewpoint thoughts. It is the muddled up thinking of a man who had drifted off course from his relationship with God and reflected the thinking of a man living his life 'under the sun.' That phrase is used many times in Ecclesiastes.

    There are countless other scriptures that can be used to refute the idea that the bible teaches an "unconscious state" when we die. Of course, this would bring into question many of the Society's other teachings, most notably that only 144,000 get to go to heaven.

    If you really want to see what the scriptures teach, try looking at it from the whole point of view, and not just a couple of obscure scriptures plucked out of their context.

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    Mary said it well, and covered everything I was going to say.

  • Robdar
    Robdar

    Mary, you totally rock!

  • BurnTheShips
    BurnTheShips

    Get some faith soon Mary, you'd make an awesome teacher.

    BTS

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    The soul CAN be killed, that doesn't make it mortal per say, it just doesn't make it eternal.

    If the soul is NOT killed it will live forever.

    The soul dying and the dead knowing nothing was referring to thsoe that die outside of God's love and grace, those that die a part from God.

    As Mary mentioned above, Jesus taught that the sould departs from the body, like the spirit does and that the soul, like the spirit has a personality and is distinct. Where the spirit is, the soul is.

    Revelations makes that clear too as the souls cried out from under God's altar.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    Open your song books, brothers and sisters. . .

    "Fear not those who kill the body...

    ...but cannot destroy the soul.

    Faithful to the end continue...

    I will help you reach your goal."

  • isaacaustin
    isaacaustin

    There is no mention in scripture of the spirit dying. The spirit goes back to the God who gave it. Thus the spirit and soul are not always together. The bible does speak of the soul being destroyed, or separated from the presence of God.

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