a slight oversight on the part of blue grass :)
Immortal Soul? Impossible!
by wannabe 114 Replies latest watchtower bible
-
-
Blue Grass
blue grass, why did you not finish teh account in Samuel??
I'm not sure if you understood my post but I posted 1 Samuel 28:13&14 to show that the spirit never appeared to Saul and that the witch only seen the spirit claiming to be Samuel in a vision. I'll say to you what I said to Mary, if it was that easy to call up men from the dead, I don't understand why no one ever tried to contact Adam, Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joesph, and Moses. Also the fact that the only time in the Bible someone spoke from the dead was when it was done by a witch leads me to believe this was an evil spirit for the simple fact that clean spirits have nothing to do with witches.
-
Mary
I don't believe that spirit in that account was Saul for several reasons. The first being that God was against the practice of witchcraft and I don't believe he would let them have the ability to communicate with his followers if they were dead.
Just because Yahweh was against the practice of witchcraft, does not mean that there is no life after death. Leolaia gave an excellent explanation about this whole scenario in another thread a couple of months ago when I asked her why God did not want the Israelites to "contact the dead": :
"The passage makes it quite clear that magic and necromancy were among the traditional religious practices of Canaan that monolatrous Yahwism wanted to eliminate (v. 9). Deuteronomistic legislation likewise abolished the many public sanctuaries throughout the land (which were used by a variety of cults alongside Yahwism); only a single Temple in Jerusalem was recognized as the legitimate sanctuary. The dead were consulted in popular religion because they were believed to possess special prophetic insight and healing power (cf. the etymology of rephaim, "healers"), on account of their divine status (cf. the story in 1 Samuel 28 in which the spirits of the dead are called "gods"). The kind of Yahwism that Deuteronomy represents recognizes only the prophets as legitimate prognosticators, with Yahweh alone being the source of prophecy. Consulting the dead meant that one resorted to a rival source of information about the future. It was also believed to be a hazardous activity, as it involved disturbing the rest of the dead. The story of Saul is interesting because the dead person he sought to consult was in fact a prophet of Yahweh; yet the practice was still banned by the Deuteronomistic legislation and Saul knew that he was doing wrong, as did the women who was very relunctant and had to be tricked before she would go through with the seance."
But assuming the witch really did contact Saul, I would think that once the rest of Israel found out witches could call up people from the past, at some point in the Bible somebody would of tried to contact Adam, Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, or Moses.
And how do you know they didn't? For all you know, they did. The bible does not reference every single incident on what people did with their daily lives. Just because something isn't mentioned in the bible doesn't mean it didn't happen.
The spirit didn't actually physically appear to Saul or the woman, she saw a vision of a spirit. The fact that Saul asked the woman what did the spirit look like shows that the spirit never actually appeared, but was seen in a vision by the witch.
That's absolutely ludicrous and a wonderful example of 'grasping at straws' on your part. The witch specifically stated that she saw "a spirit coming up out of the ground." She did not say she only "saw a vision" of him as you are trying to assert. A conversation ensued between the deceased Samuel and Saul---kind of a hard thing to do if it was only "a vision".
The fact the spirit correctly predicted the outcome doesn't mean the spirit was actually Samuel. We saw in Acts where an evil spirit also gave a girl the power to correctly predict the future.
Again, this is another example of a false analogy on your part. Because you start with the belief that there is no life after death, you refuse to acknowledge any passage that goes against what you already believe as "fact" and you therefore assert that it "must have been a demon" when there is nothing in the scripture that indicates this. By your logic, I guess everyone in the bible that could fortell an event was a charlatin. Do you apply this logic to Joseph? After all, he foretold numerous things that all came true. Do you put him down as having gotten this from "an evil spirit'? If this were the case, why do the scriptures not state that it was a demon masquerading as Samuel? It doesn't. The scripture in question clearly recognizes the spirit as Samuel, end of story. To try and claim that it doesn't really mean what it says shows that you have more interest in promoting your own personal ideas, rather than actually look at what the bible says.
You kind of took Paul's words out of context here. Paul is speaking about what type of body we will have after the resurrection.....The body we have now is perishable(flesh), it will be raised imperishable(spirit), sown in dishonor(flesh), raised in glory(spirit), sown in weakness(flesh), raised in power(spirit). Yes there are spiritual bodies, but we will not receive them until the resurrection, and as Paul states in verse 37, if we're going to have spiritual bodies after the resurrection, than that means we don't have them now because when you sow you don't plant what will be but just a seed.
So then what is this immaterial, unconscious spirit we all have that you liken to nothing more than "electricity"? According to you, we are purely physical beings with a 'spirit' that is neither self-aware, conscious, or goes on after we die, but is merely like "electricity". But now you claim we will also have a spirit body at the resurrection which apparently has no connection at all to the 'spirit' described in Genesis as being instrumental in giving man life. Gee----sounds like we've got two 'spirits'!
No matter how to try and play with the words Blue Grass, the scripture above in 1 Corinthians 15 clearly states that when the physical body dies, the spiritual body goes on. This is the theme that is played throughout the bible, from Genesis to Revelation. As we have shown to you over and over and over again, there are many scriptures both in the Old Testament and the New Testament that promote the idea of a life after death and that man has something spiritual in him that continues on after the body dies and 'returns to the dust of the ground.'
-
Blue Grass
No matter how to try and play with the words Blue Grass, the scripture above in 1 Corinthians 15 clearly states that when the physical body dies, the spiritual body goes on.
"The spiritual body goes on"? Chapter 15 is clearly talking about a resurrection, not a continuation of life:
1 Corinthians 15:3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures6After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep.12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.
Leading up to the verses in question Paul makes it clear that the topic of discussion is a resurrection from the dead, not a continuation of life. Also if Paul believed there was a continuation of life after death his statement in verse six comparing death to sleep wouldn't make any sense.
1 Corinthians 15:35But someone may ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?". 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.
I have no clue how you can say this isn't speaking of a resurrection, particularly when the words "resurrection" and "raised" are used some many time in this chapter.
So then what is this immaterial, unconscious spirit we all have that you liken to nothing more than "electricity"? According to you, we are purely physical beings with a 'spirit' that is neither self-aware, conscious, or goes on after we die, but is merely like "electricity". But now you claim we will also have a spirit body at the resurrection which apparently has no connection at all to the 'spirit' described in Genesis as being instrumental in giving man life. Gee----sounds like we've got two 'spirits'!
Actually the Hebrew word "rauch" which is translated as spirit has multiple meanings and is use in many ways in English Bibles:
Genesis 1:2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit(rauch)of God was hovering over the waters.
Genesis 6:17 I am going to bring floodwaters on the earth to destroy all life under the heavens, every creature that has the breath(rauch) of life in it. Everything on earth will perish.
Genesis 8:1 But God remembered Noah and all the wild animals and the livestock that were with him in the ark, and he sent a wind(rauch) over the earth, and the waters receded.
Exodus 15:8 By the blast(rauch) of your nostrils the waters piled up.The surging waters stood firm like a wall;the deep waters congealed in the heart of the sea.
Joshua 2:11 When we heard of it, our hearts melted and everyone's courage(rauch) failed because of you, for the LORD your God is God in heaven above and on the earth below.
Judges 8:3 God gave Oreb and Zeeb, the Midianite leaders, into your hands. What was I able to do compared to you?" At this, their resentment(rauch) against him subsided.
1 Chronicles 9:24 The gatekeepers were on the four sides(rauch): east, west, north and south.
Job 15:2 "Would a wise man answer with empty(rauch) notions or fill his belly with the hot east wind?
As you can see the Hebrew word for spirit can be used in many ways. The fact that you weren't aware of this I feel is the reason why you are having a hard time understanding. How can you have a conversation about an immortal soul if you don't know the difference between a soul and spirit? I'll go back to something I said to you earlier and I mean no disrespect by saying so. You admitted you don't believe in the Bible and that shows due to your lack of knowledge of the scriptures. It would be foolish for me to continue a Bible discussion with you when you lack basic understanding. It would be like someone having deep discussion with me about the Koran. I don't believe in the Koran so obviously my knowledge of it is very limited.
-
Mary
"The spiritual body goes on"? Chapter 15 is clearly talking about a resurrection, not a continuation of life.
OK, this is just ridiculous. If the physical body DIES and yet it is "raised a spiritual body", then how exactly is it that this is not describing a "continuation of life"? If you keep your memories and personality while in this new body, how exactly is this not a continuation of who you were? If the new and improved "spiritual body" has no connection at all to your physical body, then I guess that would mean you would have no memory of your physical life here on earth eh? Not even those that believe in a 'soul-sleep' teach this, yet that is exactly what it would entail if the "spiritual body" was not connected to the physical body.
Leading up to the verses in question Paul makes it clear that the topic of discussion is a resurrection from the dead, not a continuation of life. Also if Paul believed there was a continuation of life after death his statement in verse six comparing death to sleep wouldn't make any sense.
That's because he is referring to the physical body as being "asleep", not the spiritual body. As we have already shown you over and over again: the bible from beginning to end supports the idea of a life after death. The early Church believed in a resurrection for sure, as the bible clearly states that Jesus was resurrected on the third day after his death and appeared to his disciples before leaving this earth. The early Church taught that when a person dies, their physical body indeed is "asleep", but their spirit goes on to Paradise (where Jesus promised the evildoer he would go that very day). There the spirit stays until the Resurrection when the spirit is reunited with the body. This is what the bible tells us happened at Jesus' resurrection and what will happen to others.
Actually the Hebrew word "rauch" which is translated as spirit has multiple meanings and is use in many ways in English Bibles:
Yes, I know the word "spirit" has multiple meanings, which is why I've tried showing you that the narrow-minded viewpoint you take that it only means "breath" or "wind" is ridiculous, given the various meanings in the bible.
The fact that you weren't aware of this I feel is the reason why you are having a hard time understanding.
Surely you jest. Of course I am aware of it. It it your tunnel vision that refuses to acknowledge that when the bible speaks of man's spirit, it is speaking of a spiritual body inside the flesh and instead claim it's merely speaking of a "spark" or "electricity". Yet you now turn around and admit that the word "spirit" can mean more than this. And you have the balls to claim I don't understand the bible?
How can you have a conversation about an immortal soul if you don't know the difference between a soul and spirit?
Well Blue Grass, I think I and others on here have clearly demonstrated that we have a far better grasp of what the bible is saying than what you do. The fact that you have ignored virtually all of the scriptures that Leolaia and I have given you that proves the bible does teach that man has an immortal soul or spirit, shows your unwillingness and inability to actually back up your remarks.
You admitted you don't believe in the Bible and that shows due to your lack of knowledge of the scriptures.
I said I don't know what I believe anymore. So please don't assume that I have a "lack of knowledge of the scriptures" because I've been studying probably since before you were born. I know exactly what the Witnesses and others teach regarding 'soul-sleep' and I know what other religions teach on the subject. Yet you assert that simply because I may not believe in the Bible anymore that I don't have knowledge of what's contained in it? Please. Your notions are as arrogant as they are muddle-headed.
It would be foolish for me to continue a Bible discussion with you when you lack basic understanding.
You're half right. It would be foolish to continue a bible discussion with you, because if anyone has demonstrated their lack of understanding in what the bible actually teaches, it's you.
-
kurtbethel
I'm not sure if you understood my post but I posted 1 Samuel 28:13&14 to show that the spirit never appeared to Saul and that the witch only seen the spirit claiming to be Samuel in a vision. I'll say to you what I said to Mary, if it was that easy to call up men from the dead, I don't understand why no one ever tried to contact Adam, Able, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joesph, and Moses. Also the fact that the only time in the Bible someone spoke from the dead was when it was done by a witch leads me to believe this was an evil spirit for the simple fact that clean spirits have nothing to do with witches.
That is a very good point, Bluegrass. If the Bible says that it is not possible to communicate with the spirits of the dead, then how can the Watchtower claim to do so and still have credibility of providing "Bible based" literature and teaching?
This is something that has always confused me.
-
isaacaustin
Did not the WT claim that Russell communicated Bible truths to them after his death?
Other point Blue Grass, just because there were not more recording events of contacting the dead does not mean they did not happen....nor does it make the one recorded event untrue.
-
FuzzyPaul
Hey,
Sorry for my delay.
There are some very well researched posts here. The references to extra-biblical sources is profoundly interesting since those sources have been considered sacred for millennium. Enoch is quoted by Jude who mentioned Prophets more ancient than his generation including Enoch. The only trouble I have with favoring Enoch as pure Holy Scripture is that the English translation is from the Ethiopic which was translated from ? and that was translated from ?? The fact that it held the interest of so many Hebraic and Christian peoples for so long and was repeatedly retranslated adds to the evidence it is sacred literature.
The 66 book Bible is a closed set of Sacred texts. Wrongly so I think. The Catholic council of Trent added Sacred texts back into canonized scripture which I agree with. These and other writings considered Sacred were kept in Synagogues and libraries as the content of the Dead Sea Scrolls includes them. I appreciate that an open mind is needed to read and process their content especially when ones background includes the Watchtower. There are Gnostic gospels and Nag Hammadi (FALSE) scriptures that fail to apply to the Truth of Hebraic Sacred literature.
As a point of fact the Watchtower teaches that the resurrection of those who are not of the 144,000 is to this Earth and occurs after Armageddon but before the release of Satan from his 1000 year long imprisonment in the Abyss. The purpose given for this is that they must reform themselves back to spiritual perfection and 100% obedience with help from God who reforms their body to perfection. I have noted that this is a re-incarnation theme. Re-incarnation is based on the concept that a person returns to life on Earth as a man to get another chance to reach perfection called Nirvana to some.
A time line is provided in Revelation 20. Here it is from The Holman Christian Standard Bible.
Revelation 20
Satan Bound
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.
The Saints Reign with the Messiah
4
Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7
The Great White Throne Judgment
11
13
Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books. When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. [I] also [saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.vs. 1 to 3 is the imprisonment of Satan at the beginning of the thousand year reign.Vs. 5 "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed."
vs. 6 "but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years." cannot be linked to the 144,00 mentioned twice previously in The Revelation. They can just as likely be separate entities and most think so.
vs. 7 "When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released", rounds up his sympathizers and supporters who gather against the Saints but there is no battle, "Then fire came down from heaven" which ends this last stand of Satan & partners.
THEN THE TIMELINE CONTINUES TO WHAT HAPPENS NEXT:
vs. 11 "A great white throne and One seated on it." (Matthew 25:31 -32 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.")
vs. 12 "the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books." Is the first group to be judged.
vs. 13 "Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works." Death and Hades were considered to be gods - persons - by Greeks with Hades being definitely so. But a figurative meaning is most likely.
vs. 15 "And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire." ( Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the Devil and his angels!" and 25:46 "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.")
The description of the judgment in Mt. 25 tells of the King separating people AS A SHEPHERD does. Goats were not unclean or despised animals to Hebrews. The Watchtower ignores an obvious fact, that taking care of fellow humans, even strangers is a most important criteria for favorable judgment. They call such charitable works to be like "painting the deck of a sinking ship." Then they spiritualize the story and ignore the entire content of it to say that some people are "goat like" because they don't obey the GovBody, blah, blah.This life is your chance, don't blow it.
Hebrews 9:27 "it is appointed for people to die once—and after this, judgment" After death comes judgment - not extra time.
It makes no sense to believe that dead persons who were 100% unconscious would be brought back to consciousness, judged, announced worthy of eternal fire and then to be annihilated forever returning them to 100% unconsciousness. That scenario makes no sense to a Watchtower (and similar) belief system, there would be no point to tell a 100% unconscious dead person ”wake up, you are bad, go back to eternal sleep.” so they ignore the timing and obvious content.
Be nice, charitable. Almost all religious belief systems teach being nice. Knowing Jesus bumps one up the status of sainthood, being in the first resurrection. Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship.
Matthew 7:21 - 23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord!' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but [only] the one who does the will of My Father in heaven. On that day many will say to Me, 'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name? ' Then I will announce to them, 'I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!'I never knew you!’ because they had no relationship with Jesus.
Sorry this is almost a week after this thread started but I hope it reinvigorates the topic.
The authority mentioned in Mt. 7:29 is because he identified himself as being the Great Judge in Heaven and stated what he was expecting.Christianity is not a religion, it is a relationship.
Sorry this is almost a week after this thread started but I hope it reinvigorates the topic.
-
FuzzyPaul
I wish to add that "soul", "spirit", and other terms related to this discussion do not have a clear one meaning use, single definition, concise English equivalent. They are used in a sloppy fashion. Look up these terms in Strongs analytical concordance. They have no single use as the Watchtower wants to make their simple minded case.
When the Hebrew scholars translated the Hebrew Scriptures into The Greek of their day they chose a term for Sheol from Greek mythology with all the baggage that that term had because it was a best fit. So, discovering what Hades meant 250 years or so before Christ to a Greek is necessary.
"gymnastic for the body, and music for the soul." - Plato
The body was not the soul and that idea was part of the baggage that the term "soul" had in the Greek.
Plato, who did not teach an immortal soul in the way the Watchtower claims repeatedly, said in The Republic,
Well; and has not the soul an end which nothing else can fulfill? for
example, to superintend and command and deliberate and the like. Are
not these functions proper to the soul, and can they rightly be assigned
to any other?
To no other.
And is not life to be reckoned among the ends of the soul?
Assuredly, he said.
And has not the soul an excellence also?
Yes.
And can she or can she not fulfill her own ends when deprived of that
excellence?
She cannot.
Then an evil soul must necessarily be an evil ruler and superintendent,
and the good soul a good ruler?
Yes, necessarily.
And we have admitted that justice is the excellence of the soul, and
injustice the defect of the soul?
That has been admitted.
Then the just soul and the just man will live well, and the unjust
man will live ill?
That is what your argument proves.
And he who lives well is blessed and happy, and he who lives ill the
reverse of happy?
Plato also wrote,
And what shall be their education? Can we find a better than the traditional
sort? --and this has two divisions, gymnastic for the body, and music for the soul.
True.
Shall we begin education with music, and go on to gymnastic afterwards?
By all means.
And when you speak of music, do you include literature or not?
I do.
- http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/republic.mb.txt
The text can be downloaded and the FIND feature under your EDIT tab can be used to find the term "soul". A word is defined by its usage.
Regards,
Paul
-
FuzzyPaul
Sorry, my above post is goofy from "A time line is provided in Revelation 20. Here it is from The Holman Christian Standard Bible." to the comments on vs. 1-3. It seems that my copy and paste from the Holman CSB did not paste cleanly.
Here it is,
Revelation 20 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
Satan Bound
1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven with the key to the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for 1,000 years. 3 He threw him into the abyss, closed it, and put a seal on it so that he would no longer deceive the nations until the 1,000 years were completed. After that, he must be released for a short time.
The Saints Reign with the Messiah
4 Then I saw thrones, and people seated on them who were given authority to judge. [I] also [saw] the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of God's word, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and who had not accepted the mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with the Messiah for 1,000 years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1,000 years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! The second death has no power over these, but they will be priests of God and the Messiah, and they will reign with Him for 1,000 years.
Satanic Rebellion Crushed
7 When the 1,000 years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle. Their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 They came up over the surface of the earth and surrounded the encampment of the saints, the beloved city. Then fire came down from heaven and consumed them. 10 The Devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet are, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
The Great White Throne Judgment
11 Then I saw a great white throne and One seated on it. Earth and heaven fled from His presence, and no place was found for them. 12 I also saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life, and the dead were judged according to their works by what was written in the books.
13 Then the sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead; all were judged according to their works. 14 Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.