Meet the biggest APOSTATE in history---he started it all: MARCION!!

by Terry 34 Replies latest watchtower bible

• 

  Terry

  Marcion's sermons were ORIGINAL thoughts.

  As compared to what unoriginal thoughts? Apostolic Christianity was radically original at that time. Jesus had never rejected the Scriptures, and neither had Paul, who's letters themselves made up part of Marcion's compendium. Paul himself extensively used the Hebrew Scriptures in his own letters, and said that Scripture was useful for Christians. That isn't original, unless you want to call it original illogicity.

  Are you serious? All these people were pulling it out of their collective ass!

  Jews were a People of the Book. Anything outside what was written was being invented on the spot!

  The Bible we pick up in our hand is a layering of made up ideas overlaid by accretion like a Wikipedia.

  Marcion's ideas were ORIGINAL in that they tried to MAKE SENSE out of the swarm of stories, writings and oral teachings at the time.
• 

  Sam Whiskey

  Terry,

  Not intended to be disrespectful here, but........ your "theories" here hold less water than the even the Witnesses. Too confusing. The confused mind will ALWAYS say, "No, I don't understand it, therefore I don't buy it." Whereas the evidence from the Bible is pretty simple, follow directions or there will be consequences. The directions were always for the benefit of his servants.

  If you tell your child not to get into the cookie jar before or there will be consequences, the either obeys or disobeys. No different for Jehovah. Why do you call him a tyrant for the same reasons?
• 

  Terry

  Sam Whiskey offers this tidbit:

  1. The Jews (as a nation) were not Christians, they (the Jews) rejected Christ as God's son. On the other hand, there were Jews that became Christians as followers of Christ.

  2. On every occasion where Jehovah pronounced a death sentence, it was justified. Gotta have rules or chaos ensues.

  1.Christianity was Jewish from the start. Judaism wasn't Christian. Nobody said it was. Some Jews rejected Jesus. Some Jews embraced him.

  The so-called "nation" of Jews did not EXIST. They had been swallowed up by Rome and allowed to continue under a puppet ruler unless they became trouble. A Jewish nation is illusory.

  2.What Jehovah did or did not do comes from pre-enlightenment writings. We've been endoctrinated out the wazoo about how "real" it is. Marcion took it seriously enough to not want any part of this Jehovah or his angry dealings with humanity. I give him props for his ethical unwillingness to sanction wholesale human extinction by a tribal deity!

  Your mileage, on the other hand, may vary.

  Why are people so consumed with finding alternative answers to the truth about the way Jehovah is?

  People are indoctrinated to believe there is a "there" in the first place. Once you bite the worm the hook is in your lip. All you can do is struggle with it!
• 

  Terry

  I'll go be grumpy on another thread if you want Terry. Still love ya though. Nice to have you back on the board.

  BT

  You don't go anywhere! It isn't a DISCUSSION without contrary thoughts and opinions. It shapes and sharpens our thinking. Stay put.
• 

  Terry

  PMSacremento offers:

  Maricon's "mistake" was to think that there were "two gods", Jehovah and The Father.

  he didn't understand that Jesus, the personification of all the God is, came to us to explain that the OT and Old covenant was WRONG, it was obsolete, it had been fullfied ( the prohetic parts that is) in Jesus.

  Maricon didn't understand Paul's message the the Jews were incorrect in theri worhsip of God, he is NOT Jehovah, his is, as Jesus said, Our Father.

  As if anybody can actually COUNT invisible deity!

  Humans in the 1st century had the data they had and nothing else was available. There was no science. The closest you could come to rational thought was ARISTOTLE. But, Neo-Platonism was all the rage.

  Just as we CAN'T KNOW that anything we have in scripture isn't the rantings of lunatics made holy by decree of Authority---neither could Marcion. He did the best he could with what he had and I think that is admirable.

  Christianity is as distraught and tense with contrary opinions, in-fighting, controversy and critical debate as it eve was. NOTHING is established for certain. Let's be clear about that.
• 

  Terry

  Terry,

  Not intended to be disrespectful here, but........ your "theories" here hold less water than the even the Witnesses. Too confusing. The confused mind will ALWAYS say, "No, I don't understand it, therefore I don't buy it." Whereas the evidence from the Bible is pretty simple, follow directions or there will be consequences. The directions were always for the benefit of his servants.

  I have THEORIES?? That's news to me. What exactly would those theories consist of?

  I have just offered almost a cut-and-paste version of the Wikipedia article with colorful scene-setting. That's all.

  As far as the EVIDENCE from the Bible!!!

  How would you define the word evidence??

  Is hear-say evidence?

  I won't open that can of worms. You are certainly clearly entitled to your belief and on whatever basis you choose.

  I offer no theories. I'm not asking you or anybody else to "buy" anything I say.

  Go back and read the article again and see if I don't urge personal research on the part of the reader to verify what is written.

  Here is a brief snippet from Wikipedia (which you can verify by your own research, if you like):

  Thanks for your post, sincerely.
• 

  snowbird

  LOL at Terry vs Burn!

  I think Marcion was advancing his own agenda while using Paul as a smokescreen.

  If he'd read Paul's writings as carefully as he claimed, he would have known that all of Paul's arguments were backed by the Hebrew Scriptures.

  So how, pray tell, could "Pauline doctrine" be accepted without acknowledging its "Jewish influence."

  Something else is afoot there.

  As for donating money to the Church, was it to appease his conscience? Hopefully assure his salvation? Who knows?

  There are documented accounts of racists donating large sums to the NAACP.

  Go figure.

  Sylvia
• 

  Sam Whiskey

  OK, perhaps I should retract "your theory". In the context of the article that you posted it is only a theory.....which I surmise that you subscribe to, otherwise, why bother posting it here? That's what I meant to say. Re-reading from your however, I do see that perhaps this is something that you just happened to stumble upon in your research and wanted to share it with the board, no harm in that.

  I must apologize for inferring my thoughts about Jehovah upon you. However, there seems to be a heavy dose of anti-Jehovah everywhere I go. Perhaps it works up my ire when I see and read about people like Marcion. Where IS God in our world? Is it perhaps the reason we have so many problems?

  Before anyone argues, "The world has been in turmoil since time began", I realize that. Not saying it hasn't. But, Jehovah provided to his chosen people a sense of belonging, just as a father would love his son. It was a promise made to Abraham. Through that ownership or belonging to Jehovah, the people had a sense of order. Order that was good for them. Justice that was good for them. No one can deny that. The God Jehovah was not a tyrant, he was a defender of justice, or what is good in our world.

  I just hate seeing him labeled as an evil God, one with no love. Quite the opposite! Anyhow, I'm not here to argue, rather, I am here to make friends. Don't intend to offend anyone, just my two cents.
• 

  Terry

  If he'd read Paul's writings as carefully as he claimed, he would have known that all of Paul's arguments were backed by the Hebrew Scriptures.

  Only 7 of the writings attributed to Paul have been verified by textual scholars as being authentically Paul. The main outworking of Hebrew Scripture meaning (and attributed to Paul) was in the book of Hebrews which was not written by Paul, doubted by many in the early Church and excluded by Martin Luther. So, what now?

  As for donating money to the Church, was it to appease his conscience? Hopefully assure his salvation? Who knows

  Why weren't you on the O.J. jury?
• 

  Terry

  Samuel von Whiskey asserted:

  OK, perhaps I should retract "your theory". In the context of the article that you posted it is only a theory.....which I surmise that you subscribe to, otherwise, why bother posting it here? That's what I meant to say. Re-reading from your however, I do see that perhaps this is something that you just happened to stumble upon in your research and wanted to share it with the board, no harm in that.

  I'm interested in what goes on behind the scenes. History is written by the winners, after all. I live in the South. Monuments around Civil War sites are pure propaganda presentations of what went on. I imagine the Church is as guilty of dealing with their competitors in such a fashion. Name calling was huge in Christianity. So much of what I read on J-Wit is rehashing old business I thought I'd put something fresh in that parallels what is happening today.

  However, there seems to be a heavy dose of anti-Jehovah everywhere I go. Perhaps it works up my ire when I see and read about people like Marcion. Where IS God in our world? Is it perhaps the reason we have so many problems?

  Unlike yourself, I see reliance on the same old stale superstitous foundations as the problem with man's existence! We are responsible for our own lives. Pleasing a deity by personal sacrifice is a pre-enlightenment notion of the universe both primitive and irrational to my way of thinking.

  The War or Terror we have with Muslims is really what? Religious fanatacism writ large! Politics is religion disguised as public policy. It is everywhere like a fart in an elevator and it makes life stink. Just my opinion, mind you.

  I thank you for sharing yours and you are welcome to air your views anytime on my Topics!