God and Suffering

by AK - Jeff 322 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Perry

  As alluded by ATJ in an earlier post, I am at that point personally. Radical reshaping of my worldview is underway. Threads like this one are a significant part of that reshaping.

  Well lets hope so. When you craft an argument it ought to be able to stand on its own without misrepresenting the Christian position. To state or assume that we are all God's Children is to live in a world that is flying upside down.

  If he is love, then he must be close enough to be lovable. I don't see him yet.

  And none will ever see God unless they do business with Jesus (the man and the lamb) first. I used to kick and scream and thow fits and blame God for years until I came to the end of myself. And, when I did God was there. It will cost you every shed of dignity (in reality pride) you have to see God. It is worth it.
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  AK - Jeff

  Here we go again Perry? With the 'you better believe in Jesus or you are lost' bull? I do not believe in your book of myths about salvation. This thread is not about Christian superstition, but proof that God is not present at all logically.

  It will cost you every shed of dignity (in reality pride) you have to see God. It is worth it.

  How wonderfully comforting. OMG, you will say anything to defend the God you have created in Perry's image, won't you?

  Jeff
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  designs

  God is everywhere but you can't experience him unless you do X? God created everything but you aren't his children? The TULIP crowd. Fundamentalists make Witnesses look sane some days.
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  sir82

  Extinguishing evil by eliminating freewill might seem to some to be good, but at what cost?

  Here's my question:

  Before anything other than God existed, he could create the universe in any way he pleased, right? He had a "blank slate".

  So why create a universe in which the "wrong" use of free will necessarily results in evil?

  Why not create a universe in which the "right" use of free will results in an ideal outcome, while "wrong" use of results in something less painful than the suffering of billions of persons for thousands of years?

  Or a universe in which the "wrong" use of free will causes the "wrong chooser" to suffer, but no one else? As things are now, millions and millions of infants live a few weeks or months in excruciating pain and die an agonizing death, and they have done nothing to deserve it - they have never exercised any will, free or not, of their own.

  Why create a world in which those who cannot exercise free will suffer as well?

  If I could wrap my head around that one, I might be a believer yet.
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  AK - Jeff

  Fundamentalists make Witnesses look sane some days.

  Truer words have not been spoken.

  Jeff
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  AK - Jeff

  So why create a universe in which the "wrong" use of free will necessarily results in evil?

  Only a sadist of the lowest form would do such a horrific thing to begin with. Only very sad and confused people would then excuse that sadist. Freewill has nothing to do with it IMO. Love is clearly absent, if God is actually there. And if he is there and withholding his love, then he is not a God of Love is he?

  My mother used to tell me that if I made a mess, I cleaned it up. But with this Christian God no accountability is expected. In fact, his deeply fundamental buddies here on earth excuse him entirely by saying that mankind are not his children unless they are born again, so their suffering is deserved. I call Bullshit.

  Jeff
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  OnTheWayOut

  Extinguishing evil by eliminating freewill might seem to some to be good, but at what cost? I would have to agree with God that freewill is a greater good than the elimination of evil at the expense of freedom. God has chosen the "greater good." In time that will be born out.

  What a bunch of horsesh^t! Equating the unnecessary suffering with freewill. If you want to put man in difficult situations of choice like snorting cocaine and screwing everyone that gives him AIDS OR getting an education and avoiding a loose life, okay for freewill. But if God has to eliminate freewill to avoid some innocent children starving or getting crushed by buildings, there's something wrong with your God.

  I started this thread, partly with Perry in mind: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/188952/1/The-Wisdom-of-No-Escape-and-the-Path-of-Loving-Kindness-No-need-for-religion-in-spirituality

  Part of it is this: "As soon as you begin to believe in something, then you can no longer see anything else."

  Just as that is true for JW's, it is true for Perry. I refuse to live in a world where we shouldn't even question God. Abraham questioned God in one instance. Job questioned him. I wouldn't have continued worshipping a God who stood by as my 10 children were killed because He says "Who are you to question me?" then thinks He can make up for it with 10 new children. Job's wife had it for me- "Curse God and die." Luckily, I don't even believe in the evil God of the Bible.
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  BurnTheShips

  So why create a universe in which the "wrong" use of free will necessarily results in evil?

  Please find a way to create a free will that is not free to choose evil as well as good.

  Why not create a universe in which the "right" use of free will results in an ideal outcome, while "wrong" use of results in something less painful than the suffering of billions of persons for thousands of years?

  Every one of our actions in time is like a stone thrown in the pond. The ripples go out forever.

  There is no need to invoke a mythical Adam and Eve. OUR OWN CHOICES RIGHT NOW will have a deep impact on our descendants for generations, by the billions and billions. They will receive the consequences if we wreck the biosphere, start a nuclear war, or if we act responsibly, and keep peace.

  All mankind is of one author, and is one volume; when one man dies, one chapter is not torn out of the book, but translated into a better language; and every chapter must be so translated...As therefore the bell that rings to a sermon, calls not upon the preacher only, but upon the congregation to come: so this bell calls us all: but how much more me, who am brought so near the door by this sickness....No man is an island, entire of itself...any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind; and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

  BTS
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  leavingwt

  Please find a way to create a free will that is not free to choose evil as well as good.

  Loftus argues that creating nothing would have been more "just" and "right" than creating what we have. For, creating nothing would have meant zero suffering. God was complete, lacking nothing, in want of nothing.
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  PSacramento

  I have come to understand that the world is the way it is because it can be no other way.

  I don't blame God for suffering, I blame US for the sufereing that WE CAN do something about and do nothing or just enough tomake ourselves feel better.

  I blame US for KNOWING that WE have the power to make this world better, worse or the same and we do nothing.

  If we believe in a God that created the finite cosmos and that created Us in His Image then WE are the ones that are able to make this world what we want it to.