God and Suffering (page 15)

leavingwt

Would you think it wise for God to stop earthquakes if that meant that the life span of the planet would decrease by 100 million years?

The God I used to worship was powerful/intelligent enough to create the planet -- properly -- on the first try.

BurnTheShips

Humans created the word - it means what we say it means.

This also applies to "God".

all powerful

Is not the same as omnipotent.

Is God really bound by rules of logic he did not himself create?

If so, whence these rules of logic?

Or maybe logic rules are simply part of the very nature of God. In other words, God IS Logic. We often hear it said that God is something. "God is Love", for example. A longstanding feature in Christian theology is known as "divine simplicity". In other words, God is perfectly simple. He posesses no features or attributes. He IS those things. So, along those lines, God doesn't possess goodness. God IS good. Neither is love an attribute, God is this. Ditto for Beauty, and Truth and so on. Logic is intimately associate with Truth. Without Logic we cannot demonstrate Truth. Christians say God is incapable of lying. He IS Truth. Think of Plato's Forms. Plato philosophized that all things in our reality are reflections of a perfect ideal. Maybe God is the ideal.

Western science grew in part out of the Christian idea that God is orderly and rational, and that therefore God's creation is also orderly and rational. Nearly all of the early scientists, as well as many more recent ones, see their mission as explaining the mind of God. From Newton to Einstein, God does not roll dice with the Universe. An orderly, rational, logic-based Universe can therefore be explained by logic and scientific laws. To recap, the Creation is a reflection of the Creator.

And here is a thought. You can't prove the laws of logic as true. They are assumed to be self-evident, and you have to assume they are true. But you can't use logic to prove them. We call them axioms, or premises. It's the same with the epistemological assumptions that underpin science. You can't prove them either, you have to just assume they are true in order to use them. You can't use science itself to prove them. Googl e Godel's Incompleteness Theorem . It has profound consequences regarding the limitations of human knowledge.

Whether we believe in God or not, there are some things we cannot prove. We have no choice but to take these things on Faith. We then build upon Faith an edifice of Reason. Reason and Faith aren't enemies, they work together.

BTS

sir82

I'll answer your questions if you'll answer mine.

Would you think it wise for God to stop earthquakes if that meant that the life span of the planet would decrease by 100 million years?

Define "wise".

If you mean "would it be a good idea", well, maybe, who knows?

The question has nothing to do with my issues, as raised earlier and repeated below.

Or would you think it logical for God to eliminate the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs, considering what we know now?

It's neither "logical" nor "illogical".

For clarification, by "logical", I do mean "following the principles of logic", i.e., the science that investigates the principles governing correct or reliable inference.

By "logic" I don't mean, "is it a good idea or not?"

Or would it be logical for God to ignore that ever action has a reaction?

Again, it would be neither logical nor illogical.

In a nutshell, my issue again.

God chose to create a world in which the poor choice of free will by Person X can result in the suffering of billions of, for example, infants who never have had the opportunity to exercise free will themselves.

I ask, "Why create a such a universe?"

BTS says "God was bound by certain rules, and this is the best possible world under those rules. God cannot do that which defies logic."

I ask, "So who or what defines these rules of logic that bind God?"

And again, "logic" does not mean "is it a good idea or not". I refer to the type of logic studied in philosophy classes.

BurnTheShips

I ask, "So who or what defines these rules of logic that bind God?"

Please see my response posted a minute prior to yours.

In a nutshell, God is bound by God. He can do anything he chooses, but will not violate his own nature.

....which God, that cannot lie....

And as such, I've ended up being the truest atheist on this thread, subjecting God to analysis like an amoeba under a microscope.

BTS

leavingwt

BTS,

In short order, your comments have touched on my own conclusion -- at this time. Simply put, it's inconceivable, beyond my comprehension. As such, in the words of Ingersoll, "I cannot love the inconceivable", etc.

My life is so full of meaning already, that searching for God or adding him to list of concerns doesn't interest me. Should I find myself in a different place in the future, I can see how at that time, I might feel differently. I can also see how God really gives others true meaning and happiness in life. Especially, if they feel they were unhappy prior to finding/worshipping him.

-LWT

sir82

Back to BTS...

OK, I think I see your point. God is logic, and so can't do things which are against his "nature".

I still don't see why he should be constrained to create the physical universe such that if Person X chooses to use his free will poorly, then inevitably billions of humans who have had no opportunity whatsoever to exercise free will must suffer as a result.

I've read about Godel's theorem before - I agree, there are things that cannot be known.

It just strains credulity, for me anyway, that I am easily able to imagine a better world, yet God is constrained by his nature such that such a world is impossible.

Why create me with the ability to imagine better, yet impossible things? Isn't that cruel?

PSacramento

The God I used to worship was powerful/intelligent enough to create the planet -- properly -- on the first try.

Which Planet was that and whos definition of "properly is that?

Can you forsee a world, a universe, other than the one that exists right now?

Every single particle serving its own unique purpose, what would you change and at what cost?

BurnTheShips

Why create me with the ability to imagine better, yet impossible things? Isn't that cruel?

Maybe your purpose is to strain and struggle to become those better, seemingly impossible things. To realize them. To become god.

Theosis. Divinization.

In Christian-speak:

"God became Man, so that man could become god"

We are all individually on a journey. And I firmly believe that the Universe is on a journey too.

BTS

leavingwt

Which Planet was that and whos definition of "properly is that?

Before Adam and Eve sinned, everything was perfect, with no earthquakes killing humans and animals. That's the story I'm talking about.

BurnTheShips

The God I used to worship was powerful/intelligent enough to create the planet -- properly -- on the first try.

If you mean the J-Dubs, that was a puny little monstrosity of an idol. I worshipped that thing too.

BTS

God and Suffering

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