God and Suffering (page 18)

Perry

Gladiator:

God does not exist and we are not good.

Well, that is progress. You're half way home!

AllTimeJeff

So if not the biblical explanation about us being by nature...his enemies, What?

You mean, there isn't another explanation. This is very arrogant of you. Religiously, there are 6 billion people on earth with different explanations, based on the religious traditions. These billions would be offended that you haven't considered their texts or reasons. You are being self righteous again Perry.

Either God is good; or, we are good. That's really what it comes down to.

No way in hell is this correct. Having said that, I have seen evidence of man being good, not god.

Either God doesn't exist and matter appeared out of nothing, or we aren't good. We have zero evidence for the former and mountains of evidence for the latter to those willing to look at it.

I don't rule out a first cause, but that hardly reveals love and concern or personality. My house was made by a builder who doesn't even know me or my sufferings. So what? Even if you want to assume creation doesn't mean that it explains suffering. You are being self righteous again Perry.

Perry, your belief in god, as powerful as that is in your life, doesn't explain suffering. For that matter, God isn't explaining suffering anyway right now. YOU are Perry, DD, and others who are trying to say the following:

"Yes, God cares about you and the worlds suffering. Prove it? Ok, look here at this bible text. No? It's too old and scattershot with odd thoughts? Written by men? Ok, look, we are created beings, as evidenced by the universe having a common beginning. That is proof that God cares about sufferiing. How? Because that prove God exists. Does God existing mean's he cares? Ok, look here at this bible text. No? It's too old and scattershot with odd thoughts? Written by men? Ok, look, we are created beings, as evidenced by the universe having a common beginning. That is proof that God cares about sufferiing. How? Because that prove God exists. Does God existing mean's he cares? Ok, look here at this bible text. No? It's too old and scattershot with odd thoughts? Written by men? Ok, look, we are created beings, as evidenced by the universe having a common beginning. That is proof that God cares about sufferiing. How? Because that prove God exists. Does God existing mean's he cares?Ok, look here at this bible text. No? It's too old and scattershot with odd thoughts? Written by men? Ok, look, we are created beings, as evidenced by the universe having a common beginning. That is proof that God cares about sufferiing. How? Because that prove God exists. Does God existing mean's he cares?"

Let me know when you all stop chasing your tail around.

AK - Jeff

Matter had not always been, but God has? I think that is the point - not scientific theory as to when matter came about. God is supposedly the most complex thing of all time - yet it has existed forever? Bullshit. If a rock can't have existed forever, neither can your skydaddy hider.

Jeff

Perry

Matter had not always been, but God has?

No and yes. The problem is with the word "always" . From God's perspective there is no before or later. That's why I prefer to use the word timeless, or without time. Sometimes I use the term self-existing. Think about it, if time, space and matter all came into existence at the same time (a beginning) doesn't it make sense that the Cause of that event would transcend those physics?

This seems to me to be far more consistent with what we know than.... something appeared from nothing, without reason and without cause.

AK - Jeff

So, God is the architect of all this...this gigantic mess?

It makes sense that if all we know just came into existence following a big bang that general order would be disturbed, especially in the arena of intelligent evolution. But if man came into existence thru an intentional act, then the sky-daddy in charge needs to answer the charges leveled here and elsewhere for centuries.

So far his followers have acted no better than the Baal worshipers when confronted by the prophet - danced around and cut themselves in a personal display of piety, without answering the general demand of the prophet to prove his existence, and for the claimed diety to show himself.

I believe that doubters are fully right to ask the believers, as did the prophet: Where is your God now? Perhaps on the privy?

Jeff

Perry

Jeff,

then the sky-daddy in charge needs to answer the charges leveled here and elsewhere for centuries.

Of course, as you know I have explained it to you several times now. Let's just cut to the chase shall we? I asked you this question:

But going back to the topic at hand, because this subject is surely one of the top two or three questions for man of all time; Is it safe to assume based on the evidence you initially put forth and that I later criticized, that you are willing to entertain most any thoughts on this subject EXCEPT for a biblical Christian explanation?

You have so far refused to answer this question. So I'll ask you another. What is it specifically about the BIBLICAL explanation about how God and Suffering can both exist that you find irrational?

AK - Jeff

I find the Bible totally irrelevant and irrational in this discussion. It begins with a fairy-tale, and ends with most of mankind dead at your God's hand.

It would be better to ask how anyone with rational thought could accept it as honest in it's explanation. It is a classic Good/Evil drama such as those played out in countless other mythologies and in most children's fairy tales. The book is riddled with inconsistencies - in the OT God is a monster who routinely kills anyone in his way of establishing his people on their lands. In the NT God gets lost in the Messianic Shuffle that contains it's own inconsistencies.

Adam and Eve - Noah and the Ark - The Flood - talking donkeys - sun standing still - Crossing the Red Sea - A Tale of a Big Fish and a Preacher - Man-God salvation - Water made to Wine..... on and on. The entire thing is full of nonsense. Nothing of it makes sense. None of it is believable or rational.

Now worship of the Sun makes sense. It provides consistent, provable, tangible results everyday on this planet. It is dependable, visible, undemanding. It shows up for work and does not hide somewhere doing invisible things that no one can see, hear or touch. For instance in the healing of Haiti the Sun will prove invaluable. Crops will be planted, harvested and eaten for survival. Water will be provided thru the use of the water cycle. Heat will keep the homeless from freezing to death.

But God - your hidden sky-daddy - He hasn't shown. Perhaps he is on the privy?

Jeff

Terry

There are things AS SUCH and we call them NATURE.

We fit in to nature as a part.

We are able to imagine a BETTER situation and suffer by contrast.

The dissonance between what we imagine "could be" and "what is" vexes us.

We are able to feel sorry that we aren't in an IDEAL state rather than our natural one.

The feeling of helplessness leads us to do one of three things:

1.Invent a story and characters that enables us to explain why things aren't ideal and gives us a way to arrive 'there".

2.Accept our own nature, but, use our intelligence to employ sience and technology and education to improve things progressively.

3.Try to hold both thoughts in our mind simultaneously and live a life of cognitive dissonance (nothing is every quite right but-we refuse to identify the cause clearly.)

Did I leave anything out?

AK - Jeff

You pretty well summed it up Terry. Right down the strike zone!

Fundies like #3 or perhaps #1, but won't touch #2 with a 10 footer.

Jeff

frankiespeakin

Terry good points.

3.Try to hold both thoughts in our mind simultaneously and live a life of cognitive dissonance (nothing is every quite right but-we refuse to identify the cause clearly.)

One is forced to use confirmation bias to alleviate the pain that comes from cognitive dissonance, or give up the fairy tale.

God and Suffering

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