God and Suffering (page 4)

choosing life

I would imagine they have to do with the trinity, hell, immortal soul, soul sleep, etc. ? I would like to see them if they don't deal with these thoroughly over debated subjects.

THE GLADIATOR

Perry says: Jeff, If you have an argument against my comments, let's hear it. My comment is rock solid logically. Doesn't mean you have to agree of course.

Rock solid logically uh! And I really am a gladiator!

This is why I now look in here about twice a year.

Delusion is of comfort only to those who are incapable of understanding the meaning of logic.

Perry are you really that dense or are you just here to wind people up?

I just want to interrupt the re-education of Perry to express my appreciation for JaguarBass post on this thread. Well done. I am not where you are at, and I don't know if I will ever reach your conclusions, but I though you cogently expressed a longing we all have that no one here, theist or atheist, would be wise to ignore.

AK - Jeff

Actually, the initial post is not my original ideas if you note, Deputy Dawg.

This is misleading, it's not as much about what a person has done, but, what they are. In other words, we are all sinners.

Why? Because an ancient book says so? Aside that, this thread is about the suffering allowed by God, not whether we are all sinful in nature. 'Sinful' is just a theological cop out in my opinion. Another way to excuse sky-daddy for the fix in which we find ourselves. Isn't it?

The basic script of the Bible - no matter what group endorses it seems to be;

Evil-Dark Side otherworld-ling pretends to be a talking snake.
First couple ever made by sky-daddy can't resist the suggestion and eat one of God's favorite apples.
Sky Daddy has a fit and throws them out of the garden. Rues the snake.
Millions of people are born, suffer, die.
eons of time pass before God pays his own ransom to 'save' man.
Sky daddy does not save man. Is still waiting to 'save' mankind.
Billions of people are born, suffer, die.
Sky daddy still does not 'save' mankind, though he has already paid himself the ransom he demanded of himself for the ghastly act of eating one of his apples without permission.
All his worshipers defend him without thought based on the words of 'his word', ignore logical arguments showing that God obviously doesn't care, is cruel and heartless, and likely not even real.

His actions show he hates mankind, not loves it. Hitler, Stalin, Chairman Mao have nothing on sky daddy. Not only has he failed to alleviate suffering - the suffering he sentenced mankind to for sins they did not personally commit nor endorse - he has also allowed mankind to suffer for a very very very very very very very very very very long time without so much as a peep.

Jeff

cofty

Jeff - and don't forget that all the suffering there has ever been will pale in comparison with what sky daddy has in store for the billions who have not groveled to him sufficiently in this life

AK - Jeff

Define sufficient grovelling. To most who like to follow skydaddy, there is never enough grovelling. And never grovel outside the 'approved' group.

Jeff

cofty

Exactly! That is why religion should not be dismissed as harmless. In my opinion people who left the borg and got stuck in religion have yet to complete their escape

HappyGuy

You left out two key points.

Adam and Eve were punished for partaking of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil. Before that they would have no way of determining right from wrong, so how can they be punished for committing a wrong?

Also, Adam and Eve were infants, yet God allowed an ancient, malevolent, supernatural being complete and open access to his children knowing that the ancient, evil, supernatural creature could easily decieve and contribute to the deliquency of infant children.

Is God insane?

AllTimeJeff

Happy Guy imo has hit on 2 very important points that aren't easily explained away. (hope you don't mind my agreement... ;)

God can't get out of his own way when it comes to his negligence regarding Eve in particular. That and the fact that the punishment didn't fit the crime (Don't eat from my tree, even if a talking snake tells you to, or I will kill YOU and all your CHILDREN!)

Again, the most logical explanation of course is that the Genesis account is total fiction, from the creative days to the talking snakes to the way too easily pissed off YHWH, to the flood... Everything seems, you know, exaggerated a teeny weenie bit?

HappyGuy

I'm sorry, this idea that God is so far above us we just cannot understand his motivations for allowing billions of people to suffer needlessly for millenia just doesn't cut it, not logically, ethically, morally, or legally.

I don't claim to be anything other than a normal person just trying to make it through life. But, suffering bothers me, a lot. Not the abstract, "twenty million people were murdered when Stalin collectivized agriculture", I can't get my head around that. But, watching suffering really bothers me. Doesn't matter what kind of suffering. There is a lot of wildlife in my yard, sometimes I find dead baby birds. I cry bitterly. Sometimes I find feral cats that have been mauled by some predator, I take them in and nurse them back to health. My wife laughs at me because I won't kill the spiders she finds in the house but instead I capture them and take them outside and release them.

If I see a homeless person asking for help on the side of the road I stop and give them help.

The idea that an all powerful, all knowing, ever present being could create humankind knowing that the manner of the creation would result in the suffering that humankind has been through and not use his power, wisdom, knowledge or whatever else he has to change the creation so that the suffering would not happen, of that he would refuse to intervene to avert the suffering, well that idea just seems like total nonsense to me. Either that being is not all powerful, or is not all wise/knowing, or doesn't care, or has no frame of reference to relate to us so that we matter at all, or it is evil. But, the God explained by the religionists who interpret the Bible, no I cannot buy that.

Surely if the thought of killing a spider bothers me then God would be so indignant at the suffering that he has to observe day in day out for millenia would move him to intervene and do something about it.

God and Suffering

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