Weak argument, out of context as usually, against the teachings of Christ, and no lessons learned from history as to what actually occurs in war.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8C4AIFgUg
Think About It
Christians: Is Military Service Wrong?
by leavingwt 116 Replies latest jw friends
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villabolo
Leavingwt:
"Christians: Is Military Service Wrong?"
"IMHO, there are times when individuals/famlies/communities/states/nations must take up arms to defend themselves. Otherwise, they will cease to exist."
Leavingwt, although I agree with you that individuals and groups have the right to self defense, what relevance does that have with New Testament Christians? I'm also talking about those Christians who choose to follow their Scripture, not those who conveniently pick and choose from the New Testament what they want to believe. For example:
52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword. (Matthew 26:52 NIV)
Which, incidentally, contradicts AGuests statement in gross contradiction to military service.
However, his disciples did not LIVE by the sword, but only carried them for protection while traveling the roads. Of those who LIVE by the sword, my Lord is recorded to have said to Peter, when he wielded his:
"Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword ." Matthew 26:52
Notice AGuest first says, in all caps, LIVE by the sword but his own Bible quotation is "take the sword". LIVE by the sword is exactly what soldiers do. "Take the sword" is a more general phrase.
Second, it should be emphasized that Christians had no country, as could be seen from the quotation below which was a clear indication that they were an other worldly religion that had no interest in the affairs of "men" and nations:
36 Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place." (John 18:36 NIV)
Think About It:
Ridiculous to conclude that the Bible's and Christ's thoughts on what is a Christian can easily coincide with military combat service and what history has shown this to entail. Especially, when you know the corruption of ungodly men manipulating the politics that lead to these wars.
Now if you want to make a case that military service and unchristian war activies can be separated, then I would agree, but we all know the Christian soilder is not given that choice by his superiors.
I agree with Think About It and would add the following examples. Nazi Germany. Look at all the "conscientious" Christians who fought for Hitler in a war of aggression. Where they really somehow different than American Christians, particularly Fundamentalists whose puppet "American Jesus" wears red, white and blue, and will have their "conscience" justify anything that their political masters want? Bottom line, "Christians" in general are more a product of their culture than of their scriptures or so called conscience.
villabolo
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BurnTheShips
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/noswords.html
Matt. 26:52 "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."
Some would say that this seems to be a strong indictment against war, and place it against certain verses where Jesus seems to advocate fighting.
We'll look at those in a moment, but it should first be noted that this verse is in the form of proverbial wisdom, and is therefore not an advocation of pacifism -- nor, by reason of its proverbial nature, is it absolute, as is obvious since not every single person who has drawn a sword (or other weapon) has died by the same means.
Hence there is neither contradiction of nor relevance to other verses cited as contradictory. Moreover, that this is not intended as a statement in pacificism is seen in that the saying also carries an eschatological overtone that may be seen through this parallel, from an Aramiac Targum on Isaiah 50:11 [Albright's commentary on Matthew, 324]:
Behold, all you that kindle a fire, that take the sword: go, fall into the fire you have kindled, and fall by sword you have taken.
Expressed as this is, it has the meaning that "God's will is being fulfilled and nothing can hinder it." It has nothing to do with whether or not one actually and literally dies by the sword.
Tekton associate Eric Vestrup adds:
I fail to see how having a sword constitutes "living by the sword". The idiom "living by the sword" denotes a life of aggressive violence. How does having a sword necessitate such a life? Why can't one have a weapon for protection. I have friends with firearms, yet they don't live by the gun. In the Lukan passage, note that Jesus addresses the disciples to buy a sword if they lacked one. One can reasonably suppose that Jesus is here using a figure of speech, for when the disciples took His words in the wrong fashion, producing but two swords, Jesus tells them that the two swords are sufficient.
If Jesus was here telling them to live by the sword, it would be unreasonable to think that a scant two swords would suffice for a group of at least eleven men. In the Matthean passage Jesus is most clear about promulgating what one thinks is the Christian cause by using force -- He corrects the disciples' mistaken notion that the cause would be furthered by their preventing His arrest. The Lukan passage has nothing at all to do with the Matthean passage.
What about verses cited in opposition? Let's have a look:
Matt. 10:34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."
There are a few problems with using this verse against 26:52. For one thing, it is clear that "sword" here is a figurative reference to personal division, not to literal weaponry.
Skeptics may reply that it doesn't matter, for any cause of division or strife is in opposition to Jesus' supposed pacificism, and as one critic puts it, Jesus "has seeded extreme division, sedition and enmity wherever Christianity is promulgated" by "exhorting his followers to violence."
Perhaps the critics need to look at the verses previous to these to see just who it is Jesus is saying will be prone to violence:
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, andthey will scourge you in their synagogues; And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you. And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops. And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows. Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 10:16-33)
Far from advocating violence, Jesus is here predicting that Christians will become the victims of violence: It is the persecutors who wield the sword and become the foes. In other words, Jesus is saying here what we have: Religion will become an excuse for inhumanity. The critics have the sentiments precisely backwards.
Here's another:
Luke 22:36 He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."
An advocation of war? We have addressed this matter in our trial piece -- some even think that Jesus equipped his followers with swords in anticipation of trouble, and note that Peter scuffled with the Temple police to aid in resisting Jesus' arrest. That's an overstated case: The passage in Luke refers to only TWO swords - and during the so-called "scuffle," there was nothing but Peter slicing off a servant's ear, followed by Jesus instructing Peter to put his sword away. Raymond Brown [Death of the Messiah, 689] has rightly admonished those who read military intent into this passage:
...such an isolated instance of spontaneous defense that could have occurred in a melee of any period is scarcely indicative of belonging to a resistance movement.
The swords in question, at any rate, were not the longswords of our medieval television programs. This would most likely have been a Jewish short sword - a dagger used as protection against wild animals and robbers, considered so essential that even the "peace-loving Essenes" carried it, and it was permitted to be carried on the Sabbath as part of one's adornment. [See Hengel, Was Jesus a Revolutionist?, 21] Needless to say, this weapon would not be much use against the Temple police - much less against any number of armed Roman soldiers.
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
You might see this one cited too -- though within the context of John 14, this is clearly "peace" in a spiritual sense and has nothing to do with physical warfare. The word "peace" here is eirene, and can mean peace, prosperity, quietness, or rest, as in Matt. 10:13: "And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you." Obviously this is not "peace" in the sense of the opposite of fighting and war.
For more on this subject, see here.
-JPH
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Think About It
Here's a nice clip of Christian military activity carried out on innocent Christian victims. Mind you it was in retailiation for atrocities carried out by these Christians on those Christians. These clips are worth much more than words taken out of context to promote a preconceived belief. Now I can post these type clips day and night of whatever war or genocide by profested Christians that you want to see until I make you look like a fool or cry uncle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YXaGQZZDUIg
Think About It
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BurnTheShips
The bombing of Dresden would be considered illegal today. And the worst thing about it is that even as a military strategy it was a failure. That said, "war is hell". But sometimes, it is an unavoidable hell, and the best way to invite it to your doorstep is to be weak. You can go ahead and post all the pictures and clips you like, Think About It, but it doesn't change the nature of things.
So long as there is evil force in the world, good men have two choices:
1) to fight it when it is possible, nonviolently if they can and violently if they have no other choice,
2) or to surrender to it.
Si vis pacem, para bellum. It was true then, and it continues so. The world hasn't changed.
BTS
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JosephMalik
Sort of like what the Germans did to London and Coventry wasn't it? Do you cry about them Thinker? No place to hide in war but the Germans thought their troops had a safe place to rest in that city. How many of these good Christian people in Dresden held out their hands and cried Heil Hitler? How Innocent were they really?
Joseph
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Think About It
Sort of like what the Germans did to London and Coventry wasn't it? Do you cry about them Thinker? No place to hide in war but the Germans thought their troops had a safe place to rest in that city. How many of these good Christian people in Dresden held out their hands and cried Heil Hitler? How Innocent were they really?
Joseph my misguided on Jesus teachings about war friend.........Haven't forgot about London or Coventry. What do you want the whole GD world history of war atrocities clips in one post? My crying (inside) is over idiots like yourself who never learn, but just keep endorsing this Christian view lunacy.
Listen.....I am a NON-Christian, pro-military person telling you that you are an idiot for trying to promote this view of Jesus and the Bible.
Think About It
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villabolo
JosephMalik:
Sort of like what the Germans did to London and Coventry wasn't it? Do you cry about them Thinker? No place to hide in war but the Germans thought their troops had a safe place to rest in that city. How many of these good Christian people in Dresden held out their hands and cried Heil Hitler? How Innocent were they really?
How innocent were the British who machine gunned African Tribesmen to steal their land and gunned downed peaceful protestors in India? The issue isn't innocence since most of Humanity has no "innocence". The issue is the fact that Christianity is not a redeeming force in this world, the so called salt of the earth. That has clearly been seen in Christianity against itself in both World Wars and Christianity against non-Christians in countless genocides.
villabolo
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Think About It
Here's the bombing of innocent London Christians by German Christians.....all in the name of Jesus brother!
Coming soon......American Christians cook innocent Japanese citizens and the U.S. Army Christians massacre native American Indians.
Further out......Civil War and the Crusades.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m34qk_jU3kQ
Think About It
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bobld
I say no.Why,because we are not in the new system.As long as we have evil in the world we have to deal with it.I believe the NT is future.Look at all the other Ex that Jesus gave.
As has been mentioned those who like freedom but don't want to lift a finger for it.The President of the U.S.A. said it best about Nazi Hitler.
Bob