Should The Police Be Able To Search Without A Warrant?

by minimus 71 Replies latest jw friends

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    ColdRedRain:

    Oh, you mean like that nice guy across the street named "Mohammed"? The reason why the government allows for warrantless searches in those instances is because Arab extremists found a way to stop being thuroughly searched by becoming naturalized citizens (Which is very easy to become in this country thanks to libs) and thus being under the jurisdiction of the constitution and turning a military matter into a criminal matter. Bush simply quashed that loophole like any smart wartime commander and leader would do.

    The authorities need to get a warrant.

    Andrew Napolitano:

    Congress changed all that. The Patriot Act passed after 9/11 and its later version not only destroyed the wall between investigation and prosecution, they mandated that investigators who obtained evidence of criminal activity pursuant to FISA warrants share that evidence with prosecutors. They also instructed federal judges that the evidence thus shared is admissible under the Constitution against a defendant in a criminal case. Congress forgot that it cannot tell federal judges what evidence is admissible because judges, not politicians, decide what a jury hears.

    Then the Bush administration and Congress went even further. The administration wanted, and Congress has begrudgingly given it, the authority to conduct electronic surveillance of foreigners and Americans without even a FISA warrant -- without any warrant whatsoever. The so-called Protect America Act of 2007, which expired at the end of last week, gave the government carte blanche to spy on foreign persons outside the U.S., even if Americans in the United States with whom they may be communicating are spied on -- illegally -- in the process. Director of National Intelligence J. Michael McConnell told the House Judiciary Committee last year that hundreds of unsuspecting Americans' conversations and e-mails are spied on annually as a consequence of the warrantless surveillance of foreigners outside the United States.

    So where does all this leave us? Even though, since 1978, the government has gotten more than 99% of its FISA applications approved, the administration wants to do away with FISA altogether if at least one of the people whose conversations or e-mails it wishes to monitor is not in the U.S. and is not an American.

    Those who believe the Constitution means what it says should tremble at every effort to weaken any of its protections. The Constitution protects all "persons" and all "people" implicated by government behavior. So the government should be required, as it was until FISA, to obtain a 4th Amendment warrant to conduct surveillance of anyone, American or not, in the U.S. or not.

    If we lower constitutional protections for foreigners and their American correspondents, for whom will we lower them next?

  • Finally-Free
    Finally-Free
    Hey it doesn't bother me about being pulled, what bothers me are the arseholes who go on about civil liberties all the time.

    What bothers me is morons who think people shouldn't have the right to speak up for themselves, defend themselves, or maintain some level of privacy in their lives. Perhaps you lack the personal dignity that demands a minimum of privacy, and perhaps that is justified, but don't try to impose your low standards on others.

    W

  • minimus
    minimus

    Well said, Terry.

  • kurtbethel
    kurtbethel

    Warrantless searches are wonderful.

    If you love a police state.

  • garyneal
    garyneal
    Some people act like not thinking the U.S. Constitution is perfect is unpatriotic. Give me a break.

    I'm not sure if you meant this towards me or just in general but in case I wasn't clear, I do think that every system is imperfect in some way including the constitution.

  • garyneal
    garyneal

    ATJ

    Anyway, this turned into how the Consititution can be changed. It won't be, and for that I am thankful. It keeps things like banning Gay Marriage away from Constitutional law.

    You mean like how Bush propsed the ammendment to the Constitution in 2004 to do exactly that? Yeah, that was just a purely political stunt to keep him in office to 2008 in my opinion. However, now that the genie is out of the bottle we can take 200 years to get the 2/3 majority in both houses along with the 3/5 majority of the states to ratify it (did I miss any other requirements?).

    That part to me is the part I think is ludicrous. Let's at least limit the timeline for ratifying the ammendment to, say, a generation. (AND NO, Not according to the WT Society's definition of it either.)

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    I agree - search are warrants necessary for the police to search.

    This is NOT true and can be VERY misleading (may you all have peace!). I offer the following, which was taken from a Criminal Defense firm website, and direct you to the highlighted statements, particularly that under "What Are the Rules of Consented Searches?":

    "What Constitutes Illegal Search and Seizure?

    Today, more so than ever perhaps, the exact definition of your rights preventing illegal search and seizure are in flux. Recent decisions have impacted how police may search you and your property. Theoretically speaking, the Fourth Amendment of the United States Constitution curtails the amount of authority law enforcement officials have to make invasive searches and seize items from citizens. Search and seizure law, however, has undergone constant legal precedents set in the courts and legislation that further expands law enforcement’s ability to conduct surveillance on citizens , especially in light of concerns regarding terrorism.

    Fourth Amendment Rights Regarding Search and Seizure

    In essence, the fourth amendment seeks to protect the privacy rights of private citizens from government officials. The terms illegal search and seizure only apply to law enforcement or government officials, and in many instances it may be illegal, other private citizens, such as your landlord, employer, or even private security personnel have free range in invading your privacy, if they are prepared to accept any criminal penalties applicable to their actions.

    The specific terminology of the amendment provides protection from “unreasonable searches and seizures.” Immediately following this, however, the amendment provides government officials the right to conduct search and seizure if “upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized”. These terms essentially created what is known as the modern search warrant that judicial officials may issue to law enforcement with due and probable cause. There are a number of legal precedents and facts surrounding what constitute illegal search and seizure, which include:

    • Initially, the courts must determine whether or not a person had a reasonable expectation to privacy, and whether or not this expectation is one that society will collectively recognize (Katz vs. U.S., 1967)
    • In Mapp v. Ohio, 1961, the courts determined the “exclusionary rule:, which mandates that illegally seized evidence cannot be used against defendants in criminal proceedings
    • The “exclusionary rule” does not necessarily mean charges will be dropped in cases with illegally seized evidence, as prosecutors may have enough legally obtained evidence to proceed
    • Law enforcement cannot use illegally seized evidence or information as probable cause for further searches of evidence through a legal precedent known as “the fruit of the poisonous tree doctrine”
    • Rarely do self-represented defendants have evidence withdrawn due to fourth amendment protections due to the highly complex legal process and precedents that must be argued and filed appropriately before a trial

    What Are Search Warrants?

    In spite of protections provided in the fourth amendment, law enforcement officers (noted in actual wording as “government officials”) are reserved the right to conduct searches under the grounds of probable cause. Today, in essence, this requires law enforcement officers to present their probable cause reasons to a member of the judicial department, which will issue a warrant to search the property. However, search warrants are not a carte blanche invitation to invade privacy, but rather a legally executed search warrant must include:

    • Specific reasons of probable cause
    • Supported by sworn oaths or affidavits of the officials stating the probable cause
    • Includes a specific place, individual, and items being searched

    One of the most frequently contested issues is the validity of the “probable cause” to issue a warrant. In many cases, the precedents regarding these laws vary highly, but it is important to note that searches conducted under a search warrant that is later determined not valid can still be used as evidence in some cases. In addition, law enforcement is restricted to look for certain items in a specific location in a search warrant, so if a warrant issues a search for weapons in a shed in your backyard, and police search your home as well, the search in the home is illegal. Also, if a warrant specifically allows law enforcement to look for automatic weapons in your home, and police officers somehow find a small amount of heroin in your light switch plate, the heroin will probably be deemed not legally seized, although don’t expect to get your dope back.

    What Are the Rules of Consented Searches?

    In essence, if a law enforcement officer asks to enter your home, search your person, or vehicle and you consent, you pretty much give up your right to challenge the legality of any seizure or search because you “consented” to a search. Additionally, law enforcement does NOT need to inform you of your right to refuse a consented search, so, they can prove insistent until an individual consents without legal consequence. However, the consent must be given “freely and voluntarily”, so instances of fraud, coercion, and even undue duress may constitute illegal searches. Numerous other circumstances can also surround a consented search, and generally, only an experienced attorney is truly versed enough to challenge search or seizure.

    The Plain Sight Doctrine

    If a law enforcement officer has a legal right to be in plain sight or can smell parts of illegal contraband, they have the right to seize the contraband or evidence and arrest individuals. However, if an officer finds the items illegally, contraband may be seized, but cannot be used as evidence in criminal courts.

    Traffic Stop Searches of Drivers and Passengers

    In order to search a vehicle following a traffic stop, officers must have probable cause to commence a search. Again, “probable cause” isa relative term determined by a litany of legal court rulings at the appellate level usually. Also, officers can perform at “stop and frisk”, which essentially allows them to pat down your person as a means of protecting the officer’s safety, according to Terry v. Ohio, 1968."

    Source: http://www.lawfirms.com/resources/criminal-defense/defendants-rights/search-seizure.htm

    It is a VERY tricky area of law, dear ones, so I would caution against folks giving unsubstantiated and/or purely personal opinions, as someone here may read and rely on such opinions, to their detriment.

    Again, I bid you all peace!

    A slave of Christ (who ranked 1st in Crim Law and 2nd in Crim Pro class)...

    SA

  • minimus
    minimus

    AGuest, thanks !!

  • Farkel
    Farkel

    Shelby,

    :The Plain Sight Doctrine

    :If a law enforcement officer has a legal right to be in plain sight or can smell parts of illegal contraband, they have the right to seize the contraband or evidence and arrest individuals. However, if an officer finds the items illegally, contraband may be seized, but cannot be used as evidence in criminal courts.

    I had an attorney friend whose client had a large amount of heroin on the passenger side floor of his car. The dope was covered by a beach towel. During a routine traffic stop, a policeman who looked inside of the car, removed the towel and found the heroin. The man was arrested and tried on drug charges.

    The local Court ruled it was considered an unConstitutional search and the client was freed. The Court ruled correctly even though a criminal walked. Give a cop a small wedge and he will bring a sledgehammer. Give him a sledgehammer and he will bring a jack hammer...

    It was Thomas Jefferson who said he would rather see a hundred criminals go free than one man get wrongly convicted.

    Farkel

  • minimus
    minimus

    I knew a lot of cops. Guess what they did with confiscated stuff?

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