Me, the WT, and the "Separating Work"...

by AGuest 122 Replies latest jw friends

OnTheWayOut

This has nothing to do with my beliefs in God. It has to do with whether it is possible or even plausible that the Holy Spirit guides people to the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses and if said Body members would admit their own goof-ups to a visiting woman
OR
if this is all lies to bring attention to the poster
OR
if this is the postings of a deluded person who should seek professional help.
I am going to side with SixofNine:
Actually OTWO, I would bet she really did have a convo with a governing body member, though I doubt if it is retold accurately. She hears Jesus say what she wants him to say, you can bet Bro Barber is gonna be remembered saying what fits her script. The rest of her life from that day forward involves making that encounter into something much larger than it really was*. I'd guess that the encounter is central to her psychosis.
If your son/daughter/mother/father/best friend/other loved one told you today, The Holy Spirit, named JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH wants us to Go to the leaders of Scientology/Mormons/Jehovah's Witnesses/The Pope/whoever and the Holy Spirit has detailed it out like this or that, what would you do with your loved one? Would you search the newspaper or the internet for a sale on airfare to do as they ask?
Inkie, thank you for making sure you show how much bigger you are than me by forgiving me even before I apologized.
Mrs. Witness

Um, at the risk of getting slammed...I have to support OTWO on this one. I mean really, give the guy a break. AGuest seems very well spoken and able to take care of herself and OTWO is trying to help her (and you readers).
I am incredulous that people who have been through and gotten out of the WTBTS are still so ready to believe things like this. Didn't your experience with the WTBTS teach you that religion is man made? Can't you then reason that most "mystical" and/or "hearing voices" experiences are either caused by things in the list that OTWO posted or (get ready for it)....they're downright lies?
OK, I'll back up now and wait for the slings and arrows to start flying my way.
OnTheWayOut

Donuthole: I might add, your own disbelief is furiously trying to assert itself in the face of a small, secret part of you inside that is resonating with what she posts.
You may be right. I will open up here and tell my own story of the Holy Spirit (well, actually GOD) guiding me. Although it was not a "voice," I have learned from my own experience that professional help should have been better.
I got hooked on drugs and booze and dropped out of school just short of graduating. I joined the military and saw the world. I did a six-year hitch and enjoyed Europe, South America, the Caribbean, Africa- just a taste of many of these, but I loved travel. Before my hitch was over, the heavy drinking caught up to me. I made a mess of my life and attempted suicide. I put a gun in my mouth and tried to pull the trigger. Well, from that moment on, since life did not end, it was never the same again.
I assumed divine intervention when my hair-trigger gun did not go off. In reality, I am sure it was just not being able to go through with it. If only it were that easy to separate the two possibilities back then.
Try to understand the "divine intervention" view for a moment here. The gun really had a hair-trigger and I had cocked the hammer back and pulled on the trigger. I held my finger on the trigger and kept pulling more and more for what felt like several minutes (but probably was several seconds). I can look back now and realize that I locked my finger because I really didn't want to do this thing. But because I couldn't see that back then, I thought that if God was preventing my suicide, then what else was God doing for me?
The answer was that I decided that God was directly guiding my life, making all my decisions for me. (REALLY) So God directed me to get some help at the military hospital, but not to tell the doctors that God was making all decisions for me. God sent the Jehovah's Witnesses to speak to me (actually, my mother sent the JW's) and God told me to confide in them about HIS direction in my life. Then God told me to just do as the JW's said to do.
For the next seven years, I never doubted that God/Holy Spirit directly intervened in my life. Even though I slowly realized later that it wasn't true, I never truly got the professional help I needed until about 3.5 years ago.
So maybe Donuthole is right. Hearing that the Holy Spirit is guiding someone's life is not so terrible to me, but hearing that it directed someone to go to Jehovah's Witnesses, even if it is to correct them, really bugs me.
Having opened up myself here (although all of this is posted in my ancient history), I still stand by my comments on this thread and especially my last post where I sided with the comments of SixofNine.
Inkie

“Inkie, thank you for making sure you show how much bigger you are than me by forgiving me even before I apologized.”

WO, isn’t that a “good thing”?

Anyway, you’re very welcome. Truly.

Not that I think I am “bigger” than you (or anyone else for that matter), because, in truth, that is not what I think of myself at all. But your kindness in so stating is . . . well . . . kind. Truly, as it is written (I think by the apostle Paul), I consider “others as superior to me”; however, just because I believe that, doesn’t negate me having a conversation concerning what I believe to be true or false—kind or disrespectful.

Questions to you: Doesn’t forgiving someone BEFORE they ask for forgiveness automatically make that person who forgives “bigger”? I think it does. Maybe we could get a “count” from people here on this Board who agree with this sentiment. What do you think? Good idea? Has not Jah and His Christ told us to forgive in this way? When Christ died for us (back in the day), didn’t his sacrifice (then) establish forgiveness of our past sins which were yet in the future from his sacrifice?
Oh, and just one more thing, you really haven’t apologized (yet). You said, to quote you: “I will apologize. . . . (a future occurrence, yes?). Be that as it may. . . .
Just some of my thoughts. May Jah bless.
AGuest

Dearest Coffee... the greatest of love an dpeace to you! Like the others... your love and support overwhelms and I am going to cry. But they are tears of joy so no worries. Thank you... and may the Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies, BLESS you... and your entire household. The same for all those who showed me "brotherly" love in this matter.
OTWO - The Holy Spirit DID direct me to Bethel, although I did not know it was to Mr. Barber. As I related, that turned out as it turned out. The Holy Spirit did NOT, however, direct me to make this post. A very frequent poster did, one who YOU actually have great respect and regard for. I related this to him many years ago and he very recently asked me to post it... again (because this is actually the THIRD time)... and I said, "Okay, for you, I will do it." I am sure that one day he will come forward... and then all of this will be moot. If not, so be it. He is a great person and my friend, and I trust his judgment as to whether he should or should not.
As for the events you related, let me say this:
I, too, was at a point in my life where I was quite emotinally vulnerable... and the JWs came to my door. I have since learned that the Holy Spirit NEVER led me there. While true that he had led me BEFORE... it was the "boisterous woman" who led me there. Let me explain:
Prior to the WTBTS, you BELIEVED that some kind of "divine intervention" kept you from taking your own life. Dear one, that was the TRUTH! And you were able to put FAITH in that truth. But dear one, this is EXACTLY when the Adversary makes his move - when you are learning to follow the RIGHT voice, the RIGHT spirit "leadings"... but when you haven't yet learned WHOSE voice it is. It is then that he "transforms HIMSELF into an angel of light." And because he is FALSE... who better to use than your mother, someone YOU trusted? But because you couldn't DISCERN between the voices... they all sounded the same to you... you followed the wrong one.
I know this because I have been there. We ALL are "bitten" by him at some point or another, dear one. But because of my gift OF discerning spirits, however, which gift I received by means of holy spirit... which holy spirit YOU can also receive... so as to NEVER BE MISLED AGAIN... I have come to learn that the voice are in fact QUITE different. And only ONE has our best interests are heart... the one that said to YOU: "Okay, yeah, things are bad, but they arent' THAT bad, are they, and who else would you be hurting if you did this?" THAT voice stopped you from pulling the trigger. It was the OTHER voice... that told you to even put the gun in your mouth.
C'mon, dear OTWO... you might have been depressed... even in despair... but you weren't CRAZY... nor had you completely given up... or into the "darkness" that was trying to make his way into you. And so, he found another way to "get to" you: by misleading YOU into the "darkness" by means of the WTBTS.
Now, why do I say it was the "boisterous woman" who called you? Because she gets her "authority" FROM our Adversary. Unlike our Lord's voice... which "speaks in low tones" (and that does not mean "little" or "quiet"... but on a FREQUENCY that is not readily heard by the human body and so we have to LISTEN)... SHE speaks "loudly". Very LITTLE energy must be exerted to hear HER. But the message is EXACTLY the same:
"Turn away HERE!"
And so, you turned. You heard "a" voice that said, "Turn away here..." and you did. It was the wrong WAY.
But you don't have to blame God or Christ for that: blame HER... and her authority, the Adversary. THEY are the ones who tricked you... when you were yet vulnerable and uncertain. NOW, however, God is calling you BACK to the faith you had when He SAVED you... from doing yourself terrible harm. He is not asking you to believe ME. He is not asking you to do what I do. He is asking you to believe HIM... by believing the One He SENT to you then... and wishes to send to you, again... if you would only LISTEN again.
I understand your fear: who wants to be misled AGAIN? Who wants to look stupid AGAIN? Who wants to be lied to AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN? No one. Not even me. And so... I have to follow the Lamb. Because he NEVER lies to me. Regardless of what the BIBLE says... regardless of the WTBTS says, regardless of what religion says... or theologians... or Bible scholars"... or so-called "christians"... HE has NEVER lied to me. Not once.
And true, I can't see or hear him with my flesh... but can absolutely see and hear him with my SPIRIT. And we are ALL spirits... inside these vessels of flesh that we currently reside in.
So, my message isn't that you and ANYONE should listen to me. It has NEVER been that. And I don't post what I do because I want you or anyone to follow me. My message is listen to and follow God... by listening to and following His SON... and NO ONE else. And I post what I do because it really IS the truth... and to deny that... even if it means I don't have to be ridiculed or scrutinized by others... would be a lie as well. I can't deny these things, dear OTWO... without being a liar.
That's all I have to say. I believe your story... that you were in despair... and led from that despair by "divine intervention." I just know that you were NOT led from an act of SAVING your PHYSCAL life... to an act that most certainly was designed to kill your SPIRITUAL one (and from the looks of it, may be close to succeeding, if not done so already - I don't think so, though)... by the same person/voice. While I understand how it may SEEM like that was the case, it truly cannot be. Beause it does not happen that way. Whether you believe in God or not... the two are in conflict. And a house divided against itself... cannot stand. I bid you peace.
Now, dear ones... please... do not "quibble" over me any further. It is of absolutely NO benefit... to anyone. I am just me. Shelby. NOTHING I do or say deserves all of this "attention." If you get it, good. If you don't, great. If you want to, ASK. If you want holy spirit, ASK. And if you don't... then don't waste YOUR time anymore "bothering" with me. I really am just a foolish thing of God... and absolutely NO threat to you... or anyone (except maybe our Adversary).
I bid you all peace... truly... including if that means leaving off from this thread...
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
OnTheWayOut

I have since learned that the Holy Spirit NEVER led me there.
Just to sum up my feelings, and to leave out the advice to seek help, I will comment on that.
No outsider (something outside myself be it a voice, spirit, person, whatever) led me to attempt suicide or join the JW's. No outsider led me away from the JW's. Many human beings were helpful along the way, but ultimately I led myself to each of these situations. There was no voice at all in each situation, but I thought there was God (or his Holy Spirit) involved in some of them. I was wrong at the time.
Prior to the WTBTS, you BELIEVED that some kind of "divine intervention" kept you from taking your own life. Dear one, that was the TRUTH!
No, that was a lie. I credit myself with not pulling the trigger. I declare a victory for me. If I had realized that, I would never have listened to the JW's that came to help me. I would have been able to freely talk with the psychiatrists at the time and not hidden some fake spiritual intervention from them. Instead, I deluded myself until the lie was a great part of me. AGuest, you are probably doing the same.
No outsider (in the same sense above) led you to find a deal on airfare or led you to Bethel or led you to Cary Barber. No outsider has actually told you their name was Jaheshua Mishajah.
There is not a single verifiable account in the whole earth, past or present, of Holy Spirit actually directing anyone.
I state these truths because they are truths.
AGuest

Peace to you, dear OTWO...
Just to sum up my feelings, and to leave out the advice to seek help, I will comment... "No outsider (something outside myself be it a voice, spirit, person, whatever) led me to attempt suicide or join the JW's."
You are entitled to your feelings, but I absolutely agree with you here...
No outsider led me away from the JW's. Many human beings were helpful along the way, but ultimately I led myself to each of these situations.
Again, I agree, at least to the first two statements...
There was no voice at all in each situation, but I thought there was God (or his Holy Spirit) involved in some of them. I was wrong at the time.
Perhaps…
I credit myself with not pulling the trigger. I declare a victory for me.
Either way, isn't the victory for you, still? Isn't it still YOUR life that was saved?
If I had realized that, I would never have listened to the JW's that came to help me.
Perhaps...
I would have been able to freely talk with the psychiatrists at the time and not hidden some fake spiritual intervention from them.
Perhaps… but you certainly wouldn't have been able to reveal such to them... without subjecting yourself to what I am now receiving from you from them, would you? So that, the possibility that you received an instruction that KEPT you from undergoing what you yourself are now doing here... is... impossible? But you are doing it. And you knew they would do it. You now "judge" me... for the very thing that you didn't want to be judged FOR? How does that work? Oh, right - you "came to your senses" so that now you are RIGHTEOUS in doing so. Yes, I get it...
Instead, I deluded myself until the lie was a great part of me.
Perhaps. But now you're “free”, right? Why then do you open and comment on my threads? Yes, I know you want folks to believe that you're trying to "save" them from something similar to the WTBTS. And yet, you still cringe under their "weight" (i.e., "those great people wouldn't condescend to speak with you, Shelby"...)
AGuest, you are probably doing the same.
Probably? Well, that's a step up from your previous position that I "certainly" am, isn't is? And I thank you for that. It means you've now only 99.99% written me off - . Well, dear one... I'll take that .01% "glimmer of hope" - many people's hearts have been changed by much less.
No outsider (in the same sense above) led you to find a deal on airfare or led you to Bethel or led you to Cary Barber.
Again, you are absolutely correct.
No outsider has actually told you their name was Jaheshua Mishajah.
And again. You are correct.
There is not a single verifiable account in the whole earth, past or present, of Holy Spirit actually directing anyone.
Well, that really depends on what you mean by “verifiable,” doesn’t it? Some consider the Bible a source to verify. Some don't. Some consider science the means. Some don't. Some need to see "it" in writing... somewhere. Usually the Bible. Some don't. Some need to see it personally, with their own eyes... or hear it with their own ears. And some don't. For some... the Holy Spirit is a credible "verifiable" source. Apparently, that was the case for you, too, at one time...
I state these truths because they are truths.
Indeed, some of what you have said here IS true. And I tell you TRUTHFULLY... that NOTHING outside of me has ever led or spoken to me about these things. I have said... and I say again... that t he Most Holy One of Israel, JAH of Armies… and His Son and Christ, the Holy Spirit… dwell IN me. It was listening to that which IS outside of me… the voice of the LOUD woman… that caused ME… and you, though you can't put faith in that truth, yet… to be misled.
That you consider yourself a rational person, dear OTWO… and yet, was irrationally led into an organization as irrational as the WTBTS… should tell you that. I'm sorry, that’s right… you were “sick.” If you truly WERE sick, though, why didn’t you actually pull the trigger? Because… you weren’t THAT sick. As the voice said to you.
I do wonder, however, that you apparently believe Carey Barber, the WTBTS GB, and perhaps the WTBTS itself to be SO… well, “untouchable”… unreachable, even… so “above” its membersthat someone like little ‘ol me certainly couldn’t speak with them… indeed, that they wouldn’t even condescend to speak to “someone like” me. And you are right, to some degree: they are NOT completely untouchable, but they certainly do believe they are. As you do. That is how I KNOW that it was because of the Holy Spirit that Mr. Barber DID bother. Sister Gorgeous and I couldn't have gotten to him on our own... and in and ourselves. We simply aren't... and weren't... important enough. Remember, we just foolish things of God... and such "lofty" men don't usually have much to do with "us"... if at all.
But because my Lord DID provide the way... from beginning to end... I got to see that the “emperor… really had/has NO clothes”… none at all. As I’ve pointed it out. Looks like YOU, though, believe he at least has on, what, socks? Chonies? I tell you… he doesn’t. He has NO clothes… not one stitch. He’s naked as a jaybird…
Again, I bid you peace.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SA
Farkel

To OTWO, SixofNine and other judgmental, cruel twits:
Shelby first told me this experience over ten years ago. In person. I looked her straight in the eyes when she told it. She told it matter-of-factly, but without as much of hearing the "voices" stuff as she did in this thread. I believed her and still do. She had virtually no reason to try to impress me because we were already friends by that time.
Anyone who has been involved with what happens in the WT Organization as long as I have knows that WT doctrine HAS changed at times merely from correspondence by R&F dubs who "humbly" present their case. My own mother wrote the GB about a minor policy matter and they did later change that policy to confirm with what she had suggested. Of course, the GB will never attribute those changes to those sources, but it has and does happen.
Outside of the "voices" part, why do you have such hard time believing that she had a major part in changing a doctrine that was so obviously out-of-sync with scripture? You are obviously still in dubthink mode where the messenger is judged instead of the message. Grow up.
Farkel
snowbird

(((((((FARKEL!!!)))))))
Sylvia
SixofNine

Outside of the "voices" part, why do you have such hard time believing that she had a major part in changing a doctrine that was so obviously out-of-sync with scripture?
I don't really care if she had a part in changing doctrine that, as you say was "so obviously out-of-sync with scripture". It would make for an interesting story in her life, if she'd kept it in perspective. But the idea that her conversation with a gb member was THE catalyst for change is rather far-fetched. Your own words would indicate that the gb probably received hundreds of comments on the same subject (and yo momma's new light too). Also, as we all know, even within the gb itself there can be dissent on many matters - especially so for something that is "so obviously out-of-sync with scripture".
So, uhm, you grow up, poopy pants.

Me, the WT, and the "Separating Work"...

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