The 14,400-Anointed JWs, are they only whites no people of color???

by Scott77 50 Replies latest jw friends

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    AGuest- If you want to contradict what jesus said you are no more than a blasphemer.

    I am inclined to disagree with you, dear Heathen (and the greatest of love and peace to you!), but let's take a look-see as I am not perfect by any stretch and may have erred. Since you seem to still bit a bit tied to the teachings of the WTBTS, I am directed to use the NWT:

    He said to sell all you own if you are a member of the little flock because they've been given the kingdom

    16 Now, look! a certain one came up to him and said: “Teacher, what good must I do in order to get everlasting life?” 17 He said to him: “Why do you ask me about what is good? One there is that is good. If, though, you want to enter into life, observe the commandments continually.” 18 He said to him: “Which ones?” Jesus said: “Why, You must not murder, You must not commit adultery, You must not steal, You must not bear false witness, 19 Honor [your] father and [your] mother, and, You must love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him: “I have kept all these; what yet am I lacking?” 21 Jesus said to him: “If you want to be perfect, go sell your belongings and give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven, and come be my follower.” 22 When the young man heard this saying, he went away grieved, for he was holding many possessions. 23 But [Jesus] said to his disciples: “Truly I say to YOU that it will be a difficult thing for a rich man to get into the kingdom of the heavens. 24 Again I say to YOU , It is easier for a camel to get through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to get into the kingdom of God.” 25 When the disciples heard that, they expressed very great surprise, saying: “Who really can be saved?” 26 Looking them in the face, [Jesus] said to them: “With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” 27 Then Peter said to him in reply: “Look! We have left all things and followed you; what actually will there be for us?” 28 Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to YOU , In the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down upon his glorious throne, YOU who have followed me will also yourselves sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life." Matthew 19:16-29

    25 Now, look! a certain man versed in the Law rose up, to test him out, and said: “Teacher, by doing what shall I inherit everlasting life?” 26 He said to him: “What is written in the Law? How do you read?” 27 In answer he said: “‘You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole strength and with your whole mind,’ and, ‘your neighbor as yourself.’” 28 He said to him: “You answered correctly; ‘keep on doing this and you will get life.’”Luke 10:25-28

    12 If I have told YOU earthly things and yet YOU do not believe, how will YOU believe if I tell YOU heavenly things? 13 Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man. 14 And just as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so the Son of man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone believing in him may have everlasting life. 16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. 18 He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. 19 Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked. 20 For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved. 21 But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God.”John 3:12-21

    " 36 He that exercises faith in the Son has everlasting life;..." John 3:36

    " 14 Whoever drinks from the water that I will give him will never get thirsty at all, but the water that I will give him will become in him a fountain of water bubbling up to impart everlasting life.”John 4:14

    " 24 Most truly I say to YOU , He that hears my word and believes him that sent me has everlasting life, and he does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life." John 5:24

    " 39 “Y OU are searching the Scriptures, because YOU think that by means of them YOU will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about me. 40 And yet YOU do not want to come to me that YOU may have life." John 5:39, 40

    " 27 Work, not for the food that perishes, but for the food that remains for life everlasting, which the Son of man will give YOU; for upon this one the Father, even God, has put his seal [of approval].” 28 Therefore they said to him: “What shall we do to work the works of God?” 29 In answer Jesus said to them: “This is the work of God, that YOU exercise faith in him whom that One sent forth.” 30 Therefore they said to him: “What, then, are you performing as a sign, in order for us to see [it] and believe you? What work are you doing? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness, just as it is written, ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’” 32 Hence Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU , Moses did not give YOU the bread from heaven, but my Father does give YOU the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the one who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Therefore they said to him: “Lord, always give us this bread.” 35 Jesus said to them: “I am the bread of life. He that comes to me will not get hungry at all, and he that exercises faith in me will never get thirsty at all. 36 But I have said to YOU , Y OU have even seen me and yet do not believe. 37 Everything the Father gives me will come to me, and the one that comes to me I will by no means drive away; 38 because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 This is the will of him that sent me, that I should lose nothing out of all that he has given me but that I should resurrect it at the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone that beholds the Son and exercises faith in him should have everlasting life, and I will resurrect him at the last day.” 41 Therefore the Jews began to murmur at him because he said: “I am the bread that came down from heaven”; 42 and they began saying: “Is this not Jesus the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How is it that now he says, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” 43 In answer Jesus said to them: “Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him; and I will resurrect him in the last day. 45 It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by Jehovah.’ Everyone that has heard from the Father and has learned comes to me. 46 Not that any man has seen the Father, except he who is from God; this one has seen the Father. 47 Most truly I say to YOU , He that believes has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Y OUR forefathers ate the manna in the wilderness and yet died. 50 This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that anyone may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven; if anyone eats of this bread he will live forever; and, for a fact, the bread that I shall give is my flesh in behalf of the life of the world.” 52 Therefore the Jews began contending with one another, saying: “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” 53 Accordingly Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to YOU , Unless YOU eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, YOU have no life in yourselves. 54 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I shall resurrect him at the last day; 55 for my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink. 56 He that feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him. 57 Just as the living Father sent me forth and I live because of the Father, he also that feeds on me, even that one will live because of me. 58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. It is not as when YOUR forefathers ate and yet died. He that feeds on this bread will live forever.”John 6:27-58

    "My sheep listen to my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28 And I give them everlasting life, and they will by no means ever be destroyed, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. " John 10:27, 28

    "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son, that your son may glorify you, 2 according as you have given himauthority over all flesh, that, as regards the whole [number] whom you have given him, he may give them everlasting life. 3 This means everlasting life, knowing you, the only true God, and the one whom you sent forth, [Jesus Christ]. John 17:1-3

    Given these verses, I think what I stated ("The only requirement... is faith. However, such faith would CAUSE one to do the first two things you mention") is accurate.

    and as far as the criminal next to him , he never said anything about co rulership he said "you will be with me in paradise," which means the paradise earth.

    I was not speaking of him being involved in the co-rulership. I was speaking of him "entering the kingdom" which is what you stated:

    There are requirements such as , selling all your belongings and giving gifts to the poor keeping the preaching work as the main focus of your existence ,and keeping free from all the things the apostle Paul stated as barring people from entering the kingdom.

    To that end, I share with you:

    31 When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne (as will those who co-rule with him, per Revelation 20:4-7). 32 And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left. 34 “Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, YOU who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for YOU from the founding of the world. 35 For I became hungry and YOU gave me something to eat; I got thirsty and YOU gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and YOU received me hospitably; 36 naked, and YOU clothed me. I fell sick and YOU looked after me. I was in prison and YOU came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty, and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked, and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to you?’ 40 And in reply the king will say to them, ‘Truly I say to YOU , To the extent that YOU did it to one of the least of these my brothers, YOU did it to me.’ 41 “Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, ‘Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. 42 For I became hungry, but YOU gave me nothing to eat, and I got thirsty, but YOU gave me nothing to drink. 43 I was a stranger, but YOU did not receive me hospitably; naked, but YOU did not clothe me; sick and in prison, but YOU did not look after me.’ 44 Then they also will answer with the words, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them with the words, ‘Truly I say to YOU , To the extent that YOU did not do it to one of these least ones, YOU did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”Matthew 25:31-46

    By one act of faith the criminal wiped out all his sins. Jesus never even went to heaven until 40 days after his resurrection , so there's noway you can interpret him as saying on that very day either.

    I never said "on that very day." Indeed, I am one of very few here that ascribe to that particular false teaching...

    My opinion on women is also suportable by scripture.

    Actually, it isn't. My Lord had absolutely no problem with women. Paul laid down some restrictions, but they had to do with Roman law (which did not allow women to speak publicly, violation of which risked the lives of the entire congregation since the Jews were delivering up christians at the time to Romans who tended to use them for bloodsport)... and certainly not with the NEW Covenant... nor the Old Covenant - remember Deborah? - which Paul eventually learned to dismiss altogether for the sake OF the New Covenant):

    " 26 Y OU are all, in fact, sons of God through YOUR faith in Christ [Jesus]. 27 For all of YOU who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for YOU are all one in union with Christ Jesus. 29 Moreover, if YOU belong to Christ, YOU are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise." Galatians 3:26-29

    I think the touched part goes for the great crowd as well. I did tell them my opinion one time and they totally freaked out ,

    Not sure what you mean by "touched." As in "crazy" (since the discussion did contain some references to that)?

    ok then why does Revelation say they don't defile themselves with women ? To me it means they give up their sexual apetite or relations to preach the kingdom message far and wide . I can agree that the apostle Paul writings are very conflicting on the subject . One minute it's ,be as if you don't have a wife and the next it's give the wife her due in bed.

    Yes, that can be confusing, in light of Paul's teachings. But Paul didn't receive or write the Revelation. That was John. And John referred to a few "women", didn't he? (Revelation 2:20; 12:1-17; 17:1-18) Besides these, he referred to one woman (Babylon the Great) as "the mother of the harlots." Harlots are women. And it these "women" that John was referring to.

    How it works is that once a person has been "washed clean" by the blood of Christ, they become "undefiled"... and thus, "virgins." The 144,000 are those of ABRAHAM'S SEED... who, by means of the blood of Christ are once again VIRGINS... because they have been cleansed as to their "relations" with Moses by means of the OLD Covenant. HE (Moses) was their "leader." After such cleansing, however, they stay AWAY from the Harlot (Babylon the Great, the "woman" who claims a relation with God but actually commits spiritual "fornication" by joining herself to the kings of the earth) and her "daughters" (the "harlots" - the adulterous religions that come from such "woman"). They stay AWAY from... religion... and do NOT join themselves to such again... no, don't even TOUCH it... so as to be defiled AGAIN. They REMAIN... UNDEFILED... so that when the one to whom they are PROMISED... their "husbandly owner"... ARRIVES... they can be presented AS "chaste virgins." Along with those of the great crowd, they are the "virgins in [New Jerusalem's] train." New Jersualem is made up of the WHOLE group... with the indivuduals being such "virgins."

    Even the apostles were once defiled as they once "belonged" to and followed the "law" of the "husbandly owner" that was Moses, mediator of the LAW Covenant. Through Christ, however, they were cleansed so as to become "undefiled."

    They do also have to die at the hands of political opposers , I don't believe natural causes qualify.

    Actually, it's either. Either at the hands of opposers/persecuters... or by natural lifespan. (Titus 2:2, 3; 1 Timothy 5:9) But not by accident, disease, or some "unforeseen occurrence" because the spirit that is in us imparts a higher level of life to our mortal bodies so that sickness and unforeseen circumstances do not overcome us (not that we don't die - we certainly do, but either at the hand of our enemies or once we have reached our assigned days)... and, should out mortal bodies die... to our spirits for everlasting life. (Romans 8:11)

    I hope this helps, dear Heathen and, again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SA

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    "And, Scott77, based on the ratio of men to women in the WTS, mostly white American women"
    blondie

    Excuse me blondie, did you meant that the majority of 14000 are White American Women, right?

    Scott77

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    And what about those who've died? Even if, say, some were being "replaced"... but say, for argument's sake... they still partook... so that the "slot" is double counted... you would STILL have a decrease for those who died during the year. Thus, any increase would be minimal. And yet, when I left the WTBTS in 1997... the number was 8,687 (or something like that - I don't really keep track any more). Last year, though, it was, what, getting close to 11,000?

    This very phenomena... that the number is steadily increasing... should be evidence that (1) the number was never "closed" (indeed, the Spirit and the Bride KEEP saying "Come!" even to this day)... (2) they actually have NO idea WHO the 144,000 are... or where they hail from... and (3) they really are the false prophets that they are.

    AGuest

    HI AGuest,

    I believe did overlook this quoted statement from AGuest. I sincerely appologize. Dear AGuest, please, can you clarify on that above what you meant? And in between, in light of the recent 'new light' of FDS, where are we standing right now regarding the 14000? I understand, there are 14000 as sponsored by the Watcthower group of Jehovah's Witnesses and those that are non-Watchtower sponsored claimants.

    Scott77

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    Ms. Know Everything,

    I've studied English history quite a bit for an American and also studied some French history. My interest has to do from a female fascination for Henry VIII ahd his wives and origins of American const'l law. Royalty does not have to do with blood lines so much as political legitimacy. The English have had several royal houses. Usurpers pop up and grab power from the present occupant. Every family that holds large amounts of property has some familial connection to past kings and queens. Indeed, Queen Elizabeth II is considered not very royal by many. There are families with much better blood lines.

    The idea of a black person being anointed would have comical in the 1950s and 1960s. Maybe a few did. I would say it was actively discouraged. When I was about eleven, I stood up a circuit overseer who explained why Jehovah's Witnesses were segregated in the South. It was for the comfort of white people. Colored people were not welcome. They could knock on doors but they had to know their place.

    The whites I knew in NJ and NY contrived elaborate schemes to not attend a black KH. There was a large black presence but in menial roles.

    When one considers the whole world and that Jesus was not European but Semitic, how do you justify such a white European presence. They don't really care about Third World or emerging peoples.

    Of course, society was racist. But God's people would do better, would they not? If I were a racial minority, I would run from all the whitness with all my might. Indeed, the Society is caught in some time wrap. They are not only white racially but cling to white culture from the 1940s and 1950s. They are whiter than white.

    Read Rutherford's letter to Hitler concerning the Jews. If the president of the Society could write that about Azenshenki Jews who can pass for white European Christians, what about people who cannot pass for European. Also, notice the maleness. Not typical of the earth's population in any way.

  • Glander
    Glander

    You guys need to get into Star Trek trivia.

    The 14,000 number is just a dumb joke, huh?

  • Scott77
    Scott77

    "They are not only white racially but cling to white culture from the 1940s and 1950s. They are whiter than white..."
    Band on the Run

    That is very interesting observations. Please, I had like you BOTR to expand on that specific statement above. I think, this should be from your own personal experiences, what you saw, lived it or something like that.

    Thank you

    Scott77

  • Band on the Run
    Band on the Run

    I was born -in and grew up during the time frame. Personally, the racial aspects are fascinating. It would make a great popular book. My family had close friends who were black in the Witnesses. This is from Russell's time. I was very young. Actually, I wrote of this recently in a different thread. My family was hardly racist for white people in Newark, NJ b/c of the Witness connections. I've written that I always felt an outsider in a black KH. People were warm but never close. I used to pray the much nicer and closer to Norman Rockwell standards white suburban congregations. I was told the long time Witnesses were my aunts and uncles. I thougth they meant literally b/c I was so young.

    Personally, I was very impressed by the integration I saw. Churches were very racially segregated in the North. I had no exposure to the South and my JW aunt did. I heard of unspeakable poverty in the white South. She had a breakdown and took a long time to get her heatlh back. I had no idea that the Southern KHs were segregated. When I made the statement that segregation was not Christian, I did not know that Jesus and Paul endorsed slavery. My reaction was always to resist and fight than comply. It popped out of my mouth. We were always warned never to say anyting in the presence of a JW that was not family. My parents never mentioned specific items. Keep your mouth shut. Do not bite. Listen and promptly ignore. Were it not for shunning, I believe many relatives would have left. He seemed shocked to hear it from me. Shock of all shocks, I was not punished. It was never mentioned.

    Besides the Bethel connections from when it was small group would overrule what the brother could do to us. I knew my family would protect me.

    It does not deal with racism, which was very open but my kid sister did something so sad. We were allowed to celebrate holidays at school. My mom let us. Father prob. assumed we were not but we were told not to ever tell him things. Secrecy upon secrecy. My five year old sister made a pilgrim lady out of construction paper. My mom posted it on the kitchen door. Sister was very proud of pilgrim lady. Suddenly, the door bell rang and it was JWs with no advance notice. My sister knew to grab the pilgrim lady and hide it under a chair. I will never forget how frenetic the child was in grabbing the pilgrim.

    This is personal experience. I never heard it openly discussed at any meetings. The times were very different from now. The neighbors were very upset when a black JW visited us. We received numerous phone calls, asking if he were selling our house. It was a lovely white community. They were so racist they would not sell to middle class blacks. Middle class blacks always existed in a suburb - from before the REvolutionary War. Well, they could not find white people to buy houses in Newark. They reasoned that a Latino with no assets was better than a wealthy, respected black person. Within a few years, the neighborhood was a total zoo. White, sort of, by their measure. If they sold to middle class blacks, the neighborhood would have remained stable. In fact, it would have improved. Middle class blacks flocked to the one suburb which is very affluent and integrated now.

    When I grew up, almost everything revolved around race. My parents were pro-Martin Luther King, Jr. They were appalled by how the white Southerner law enforcement beat up peaceful demonstrators. I believe my civil rights interests relate to being an outsider b/c of JWs. My parents had also pioneered in the South. White sherrifs were not welcoming. I grew up with a hodge podge of contradictory beliefs. They preferred white people but only certain white people. Unlike the other white kids in my area, I knew black people in real life. I know it is not too coherent.

    I don't recall ever seeing a black Bethelite when I was young. All white-as I recall. Actually, I rode the subway to Brooklyn regularly only a short while ago. Sometimes I attend events in Brooklyn Heights. Thousands of Bethelites would emerge from the factories at certain times. I could spo themt on the subway a mile away b/c of how they just do not fit. They do not dress like white NYers. Their body language is different. I just know. When I ask to verify, I am correct. Anway, I do not recall seeing any black Bethelites even recently.

  • ShirleyW
    ShirleyW

    Well, addressing the original question of on white people being of the anointed, in the Cong i grew up in the only Bro who was anointed was black, also later on met a black Sis who "claimed" she was anointed, I have my doutbs about her

    There are a lot of Black Brothers and Sisters at Bethel more so now than when I was growing up, but they were around then too.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    The answer is no. Any baptised JW can be counted as a 'partaker'. The qualifying aspect is delusion, not race.

  • a watcher
    a watcher

    The anointed one in my congregation is black.

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