Do any of you still believe in 'Hellfire'? heh

by theMadJW 277 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  PSacramento

  Ah, the faith without works view, ah yes...

  Well, let's see which works Jesus holds dear:

  The Sheep and the Goats

  31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

  34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

  37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

  40 “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’

  41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

  44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

  45 “He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

  46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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  Deputy Dog

  Isaac

  I'm glad I'm just like the criminal before God, having faith only in the promise and not my works.
• 

  PSacramento

  And what of James since HE is the one the mentiones Faith without works is dead, what does James say?

  My brothers, as believers in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ, don’t show favoritism.

  If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” a you are doing right

  26 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. 27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

  Taming the Tongue

  3 Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. If anyone is never at fault in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to keep his whole body in check.

  3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.

  7 All kinds of animals, birds, reptiles and creatures of the sea are being tamed and have been tamed by man, 8 but no man can tame the tongue. It is a restless evil, full of deadly poison.

  9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse men, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers, this should not be. 11 Can both fresh water and salt a water flow from the same spring? 12 My brothers, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.

  13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

  17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.

  “God opposes the proud

  but gives grace to the humble.” b

  7 Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you

  11 Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

  17 Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn’t do it, sins.

  too name just a few...
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  Deputy Dog

  PSac

  If you look close at the passage you quote you'll see that the righteous didn't even know they did those works.

  I have such faith in the promises of Christ, that He has provided all those works for me.
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  Deputy Dog

  PSac

  Why do you heep condemnation on yourself?
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  PSacramento

  Not sure what you are talking about DD...

  I was pointing out the works/deeds that Jesus and James felt were important enough to mention.

  These were deeds that were done with NO though or recompense and with no ultior motive, as we can see as per Matthew.

  They were done because we are under God's Grace, doen out of love, not because we have to do them, but because God's love and Grace "compells" us to do them.
• 

  PSacramento

  There is NOTHING that we can do that "saves us", only God;s grace can do that.

  James's point was that this grace compells people to do these deeds with no thought of recompense and with nothing but love in their heart.
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  Deputy Dog

  PSac

  James's point was that this grace compells people to do these deeds with no thought of recompense and with nothing but love in their heart.

  Sorry for the confusion. I agree. But, for Gods children, the works needed for salvation, Christ has already provided, just like he did for criminal in Luke 23
• 

  PSacramento

  I agree DD.

  The other thingI wanted to show was that Jesus and James both mentioned specififc deeds:

  Caring for others, not judging and being aware of our arrogances.

  Notice that THE thing that JW's proclaim as being what makes "jehova the happiest" (door-to-door canvassing and literature drop off) are NOWHERE to be found.
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  theMadJW

  DD: MadJW

  but ALL of us have faith in Jehovah & Christ. Faith WITHOUT works is....DEAD.

  Works always come after faith or as a result of faith, but, works do not save.

  Mad: Of COURSE! James showed the futility of trying to seperate them; works are a PART of Faith.

  You talked about the one who has "the RIGHT to make that call". In Luke 12 Jesus talks about the one who has the right to make this call:

  Luke 12:4 Moreover, I say to YOU, my friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and after this are not able to do anything more. 5 But I will indicate to YOU whom to fear: Fear him who after killing has authority to throw into Ge·hen'na. Yes, I tell YOU, fear this One. NWT

  If someone is already dead (and the dead have no soul as the WT teaches), why should they fear being thrown into fiery Gehenna? Should you/we be afraid of being cremated?

  Mad: First, when ones dies, their body's referred to as a "DEAD soul". How you can so easily miss the obvious is startling: we should be in Fear the One who will DESTROY souls, by casting them into the SECOND death (gehenna) from which there will BE no resurrection nor ransom.

  Matt 10: 28 `And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna.