by Open mind 46 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
No fear of hell. It ain't real. No wish for heaven. It is just as contrived. No bowing to Jesus - he's a dead carpenter from 2000 years ago who pissed off his local religious leaders, who got the Romans to kill him. Nothing more, nothing less. Dead. With a capital D. He can't save. You can't meet him. I shant bow to a dead man.
As you know, I respect you and your beliefs, but I am curious as if there could be any way to change your mind?
The reason anyone will burn for eternity, is because they will sin for eternity.
As you know, I respect you and your beliefs, but I am curious as if there could be any way to change your mind?
I don't know of one. If you could verify that Jesus is any more than a dead carpenter from the 1st century I would like to see such proof.
Marx said that 'religion is the opium of the people' - I think that could be extended to the idea of God/Jesus. So many are waiting to 'kiss the son', yet there is not a shred of evidence that the 'son' is more than blowing dust these days.
But I remain open to anything solid you can share of substance.
Jeff
That's your own human ethics and values filtering through, IMO.
My ethics and values ultimately derive from The Source.
Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
You are missing something, the following sentence to that one is:
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
God doesn’t force us to love Him or each other. Like I said previously, we have the decision to accept him and love him back--or not. But, in order to be part of his family, we have to. Love allows choices. To be a disciple of Jesus, you must love God and fellow person. If you don't love God and fellow persons, you are not a disciple of Jesus.
Now, to apply your line of reasoning, how could you love a God that forces you to love others or be killed? It's the same argument, you know.
God commands his followers to love him. If they choose not to, he will, at minimum, kill them with no hope of a resurrection (Watchtower) or at maximum torture them for eternity (Fundamentalist Christians I have spoken with, but, apparently not Perry.) . Can you see my conundrum? How can I genuinely love a god like that? And if my love isn't genuine, I'm toast anyway as He can see through fakery.
Again, these are misunderstandings regarding Hell. All of us die, and all of us have eternal souls. We choose our final resting place. If we love God most, we will choose him and be with him. If we love something else more, we will choose that instead and be with that instead. God has no need to punish us. He respects our choices, and respects our choosing them.
If you choose, you are chosen.
He didn't make us in order to force us to love him. He made us so we could choose to love him. A forced love is not love. Love must be freely chosen. Would you want your life partner to be forced to love you by some outside power? Would this even be true love? Would the arrangement be satisfying to you? Or wouldn't you rather he/she freely choose to love you?
God is the greatest good, a good beyond description. He is highest thing imaginable. Yet we are free to choose to love something that is lesser than him. And that is what Hell is. That is also what evil is. Evil isn't merely the doing of bad, it is choosing a lesser good over a greater one. Hell is eternity without the greatest and best good. Without the source of love through which all other loving things came to be. It is to be outside the natural home for our souls. Yet some will choose this for themselves.
The road that stretches before our feet is a challenge to the heart
long before it tests the strength of our legs. Our destiny is to run to
the edge of the world and beyond, off into the darkness;
In that darkness beyond the world, we can begin to know the world and
ourselves. We begin to understand that we are not made to pace our
lives behind prison walls, but to walk into the arms of God!
BTS
But I remain open to anything solid you can share of substance.
Well, for that you would have to give me an idea of what you feel is "solid" and "of substance" that would convince you.
But in truth, I was curious as to what you think would do it, what would make you believe?
This is our time on Earth. No-one has ever come back.
But in truth, I was curious as to what you think would do it, what would make you believe?
Very simple! God can do anything he wants, right? Then all he has to do is make it so obvious to us doubters that all doubt is dispelled. Skywriting. Personal appearance complete with miracles that cannot be denied. Walk on water - this time in front of a few million observers with cameras. Take a couple fish and a loaf and feed 10,000 while I watch it happen. An oral reading of the Bible that emanates from the sky in a melodious divine voice in all languages and tongues?
What I don't accept is an ancient book filled with superstitious nonsense as basis for belief. Without that book, Jesus is totally unknown on the planet. Born agains are never born of Jesus - never heard of him. Yet guess what? There would still be billions of people superstitiously claiming that God [in whatever the favored name is] is in them, with them, part of them, influencing them... on and on.
The names would be changed, but the superstitions would remain the same. In fact they have. In places where Jesus isn't known, tribesmen attribute things to god. Religion/belief is just superstition cleaned up a little in the west.
If God wants people to believe in him - well just show up! Simple as pie. Forget the whole 'faith' thing - which is just really saying 'I can't prove that God is alive, cares, lives, will save. But I accept that he is in spite of it's irrationality - because I fear death, and believing in something to save me is better than accepting death.'
Jeff
This is our time on Earth. No-one has ever come back.
Indeed and this is the only earth we get, the least we can do is make it OUR paradise and stop worrying about the "after life".
If one believes that God gave us this Earth then the least we can do is make it the best place we can to live on.
If one believes it is our because we have evolved to dominate it, then the least we can do is make it the best palce we can live on.
Burns, thanks for your kindly reply. I appreciate you taking the time and effort to reach out.
You said that I was missing something and then you quoted what Jesus said was the 2nd greatest COMMANDMENT. I don't see how that changes anything.
If I hold your life in my hands and COMMAND you to do something under threat of death, how can you honestly call that a real choice. God COMMANDS us to (1.)love Him and (2.) our neighbors. Nice ideas except for the COMMAND part.
God as portrayed in the Bible sounds like a hostage taker holding a gun to everyone's head and telling them that he'd appreciate it if they loved him while following his commands.
At the end of the day (or my life), I would love to discover that there's an after life with a reasonable, benevolent explanation for everything that has transpired on Earth. Just like I'd love to meet the Queen of England someday. (Thank you Jeff.) But I'm not holding my breath.
Burns, you painted a beautiful word picture, but that picture doesn't match up to what Jesus purportedly said in Matthew.
om
Very simple! God can do anything he wants, right? Then all he has to do is make it so obvious to us doubters that all doubt is dispelled. Skywriting. Personal appearance complete with miracles that cannot be denied. Walk on water - this time in front of a few million observers with cameras. Take a couple fish and a loaf and feed 10,000 while I watch it happen. An oral reading of the Bible that emanates from the sky in a melodious divine voice in all languages and tongues?
Done !
But wait, what happens 2000 years after that?
What I don't accept is an ancient book filled with superstitious nonsense as basis for belief. Without that book, Jesus is totally unknown on the planet. Born agains are never born of Jesus - never heard of him. Yet guess what? There would still be billions of people superstitiously claiming that God [in whatever the favored name is] is in them, with them, part of them, influencing them... on and on.
Hmmm, I see your point.
So I guess that, unless God decides to come to us AND stay here, with us, dictaing to us, controlling us, that, eventually if God leaves, someone, somewhere, will say, it never happened.
My point is that, I have thought long and ahrd about this and, outside of "the second coming" and a permanent rule of God on Earth, there is NO way to convince some one that doesn't want to believe.
This is not a critique mind you, I am just stating that I don't think there is an external way to change a doubters mind about God.
