JWs say it happened just 86 years ago. That, of course, would be after the Old Testament. I tend to believe it happened when Christ was on earth. That, of course, would also be after the Old Testament.
Quality of this Forum
by stevieb1 120 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
plmkrzy
I was taught that they were cast down to earth at the end of the cold war and the proof was listed in the chain of events printed in the knowledge book which I found to be pretty interesting but.. It still didn't seem to make perfect since to me because even though the events and dates listed regarding world wars etc. etc.are true, a lot of the other desasters stated are comparable with many others through out history. So i don't really understand how the GB draw thier conclusions.
plm -
IslandWoman
aChristian,
You wrote: "But one thing I know for certain. There is an all powerful God who created our universe. And His name is Jesus Christ."
I do not know your beliefs on the trinity issue. Is there another thread here where you have discussed this subject? If so could you post the title, I would be interested in reading why you feel that Jesus is the Creator.
I will not propose any questions or counter arguments to you on the subject, I just want to understand where you are coming from on this.
OOPs, sorry just found it!!!!
Thanks,
IW -
aChristian
Ab,
You wrote: Actually, I think your numerology ...
I think I have already adequately explained why the evidence I presented cannot be fairly or accurately called "numerology."
You wrote: is just convenient coincidence.
Any evidence can be called "coincidence." When a third person's blood was found at the murder scene of O.J. Simpson's ex-wife and her friend, DNA tests showed that the chances of that blood belonging to someone other than Simpson were several billion to one. But there are several billion people in the world. So, that blood could have belonged to someone else. Maybe it was just a "convenient coincidence" for the prosecution's case. As I mentioned earlier, the sun's diameter is exactly 400 X the size of the moon's diameter. ( "864,000 mi." vs. "2,160 mi." according to the 1998 edition of The World Almanac, pages 290 and 291, or "1,400,000 km." vs. "3500 km." according to NASA's article "Geometry of Solar Eclipses" @ http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhelp/SEgeometry.html What are the chances of that? Very slim I say. But add to that the fact that the sun is 400 times as far away from earth as the moon, and 400 thousand times as bright as the full moon, and all the rest of what I wrote earlier, and I say all these things being "a convenient coincidence" are about as likely as O.J.'s blood at that murder scene belonging to someone else.
But then we know the odds of that not being his blood did not impress that jury. And it looks like the odds in this case are not going to impress a full jury of atheists. I didn't think they would. No doubt most on the O.J. jury did not want to believe he was guilty. And there is no question that many people do not want to believe in God. For doing so has consequences. Doing so requires that we either change the way we live our lives or live our lives with a guilty conscience, knowing that we are disobeying God.
You wrote: Why is your numerology right, and the others from other Holy Books wrong?
Because the "numerology" in other "holy books" is, in fact, numerology, and nothing more. For instance, the number "19," which is a big in Islam, cannot be shown to have any connection to physical realities, and certainly nothing comparable to the connection I have shown between the Bible's favorite numbers and those which now appear in the sun, moon and stars.
You asked: What about the Bible Code? DO you believe in that, and if not, why not.
No, I do not. What proponents of the "Bible Code" do is pure manipulation. You will also notice that they have only tried to find "hidden" words and phrases in the Old Testament. Why? Because the Hebrew language has no vowels. That gives them the freedom to insert vowels as they please. Take all the vowels out of any book and run endless computer trials patching together every 2nd letter, every 3rd letter, every 20th letter and so on. Then do so not just linking letters in the text horizontally but also vertically and diagonally. Then insert any vowels you want into these endless possibilities of mixed up consonants. And I guarantee that you will be able to come up with many familiar words and phrases.
You wrote: you have not proved one thing, other than your willingness to believe
Some might say you have proved your willingness not to believe. But I wont. Because I've not given up hope for you yet, Ab. : )
You wrote: I think we've reached the end of the rope on this one?
You are probably right. But we had an interesting discussion. That's what we are here for, right?
-
aChristian
IW,
Colossians 1:16 says quite plainly that Jesus Christ created the universe. "By Him all things were created ... all things were created by Him and for Him."
I wrote this a while back. Though I don't think I posted it here anywhere.
As one of Jehovah's Witnesses for many years I was, of course, fully opposed to the idea that the God of the Bible was a "Triune" God. For the first couple years after leaving the Witnesses I continued to hold strong anti-Trinity views. Several years ago I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior. Afterwards I decided to consider both sides of this issue a little more closely than I had done in the past.
After doing so it wasn't long before I found myself convinced that there is much less spiritually objectionable to the Trinity doctrine than there is to the common alternative. Those who reject the Trinity normally do so because they do not view Jesus Christ as Almighty God or as one Christians should rightly worship. Non-Trinitarians almost always end up viewing Jesus as only "a perfect man" and God's chief angel. Though Christ Himself said we are to "honor the Son just as we honor the Father" (John 5:23), non-Trinitarians never seem to do anything close.
Yet, despite the fact that all non-Trinitarians seemed to give far too little honor to Christ, I had great trouble giving serious consideration to the Trinity doctrine because my mind told me it made absolutely no sense. How could three Divine Beings making up one God? After all, 1+1+1 does not equal 1. I knew that in Kindergarten.
I realize now that I had only one problem in believing that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit could make up one God, or that one God could manifest Himself at different times, and simultaneously, in three different forms. That was my inability to fathom the existence of anything beyond our physical world.
But then I found out something quite interesting. I discovered that scientists now firmly believe that dimensions beyond our four physical dimensions of space and time do indeed exist. For they now tell us that even though we can only directly observe four dimensions, there must somehow, somewhere, exist at least six other dimensions. For, they say, only when we allow for the existence of these extra dimensions, in which forces operate beyond our four dimensional laws of physics, are we able to account for all the properties and principles of "quantum mechanics."
Take, for instance, "string theory." At the very heart of string theory is the proposal that the cosmos experienced a dimensional split at 10 to the minus 43 seconds after the Big Bang began. At that instant, the ten-dimensional expanding universe split into two pieces: a six-dimensional piece that permanently ceased expanding and never produced matter, and a four dimensional piece that became our dimensions of length, width, height and time. Modern science maintains that only that four dimensional system continued to expand, eventually producing matter and stars. (see Stephen Hawking's A Brief History Of Time, 1988)
Now, since modern science believes in the existence of dimensions beyond the four we experience, it seemed to me that I should be able to believe that God exists both in and beyond the four space time dimensions in which we exist. For if as the Bible says God created our physical universe, He would not be bound by the laws of the physical universe which He had created any more than I would be bound by a cage I made to keep my parakeets in. While my birds would be locked inside the width, height and depth constraints of the cage I made, I would not be so constrained. If as the Bible says God created our physical universe, He would have to be omnipresent. For, if He was not, He would be bound by the width, height and depth constraints of the "cage" He had made. The same goes for other natural laws. If God made them, He must have existed before they were made, and so He would not then have been bound by them. And He would not now be bound by them either, unless He chose to climb inside the "cage" He made, close the door and throw away the key.
I also learned that Einstein proved that time is only a dimension of our physical universe. And that time began when our physical universe began. Thus, if Christ existed "with God" (John1:1) before the creation of our physical universe He must have existed before time began, and His origin can truthfully be said to be "from the days of time indefinite." (Micah 5:2 NWT) Or for those who prefer plain English, "from everlasting," and "from the days of eternity." (KJV, NAS) So, though in one sense God's Son had a beginning, in another sense He did not. For if Jesus Christ has existed since before time began, when did He begin?
It also helped me to remember that Jesus Christ is God's "Only Begotten Son." (John 3:16) To be "begotten," according to both the Biblical and dictionary definitions, means to be produced, not out of nothing, but from a parent's own body. For instance, the Bible tells us that Abraham "begat Isaac" "from his own body." (Gen.15:4; 25:19) And it is widely understood that Isaac pictured Jesus Christ.
Children who are begotten by a human parent, once they are fully grown, are also absolutely equal to their parents in every way. In physical stature, in strength, in intelligence, etc. Granted, the child may not have the same position in business or government as his parent but, in reality, that child is the parent's equal in every way. I, for instance, will always show my father the special honor a son shows to his father, but at the same time I will always be my father's equal. So, if Jesus Christ was begotten from his Father's own body, so to speak, before time began, he is both eternal (without a beginning in time), as Micah 5:2 says, and his Father's equal, as Philippians 2:6 tells us in most translations of the Bible.
Another thing I kept in mind was that our parents are three dimensional physical people. As such they occupy only a few cubic feet of space. As their children, begotten from their bodies, we too are three dimensional people who occupy only a few cubic feet of space. For parents who beget children always do so "after their own kind," so to speak. Now the Bible tells us that God is not a three dimensional being occupying only a few cubic feet of space. The Bible indicates God is omnipresent. He exists everywhere at the same time. So, if Christ was begotten from God's own body, so to speak, and "after his kind," so to speak, He too would have God's own omnipresent nature.
When I was born the cord connecting my mother and I was cut. At that time I was no longer physically a part of either one of my parents. We soon became even more "disconnected" when I was placed in the hospital nursery fifty feet down the hall. Right now I might be in New York and both my parents might be thousands of miles away from me in California. But if God begat a Son after His own kind, so to speak, He and His Son would both be of the same substance, and thus would both be omnipresent. If this is so, it becomes very difficult to think of them as two separate Spirit Beings. And since they both have and send forth the same Holy Spirit, as Scripture says they do, from their mutual omnipresent position, it is not difficult to think of God as "three in one." In fact it then becomes more difficult to think of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as separate entities.
I am now convinced that all the Scriptures pertaining to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, and to their Deity, can only be understood and fully harmonized by someone who does not attempt to put the God of the Bible into some kind of four dimensional box.
-
NameWithheld2
I take such offence to statements like this ...
"You say that to you this does not seem right or fair. But I think it is both. For I believe God has chosen to reveal Himself fully only to those who very much want to know Him, and very much want to live righteous lives. I believe that all those who really do, demonstrate these great desires by extending much effort in their quest to know God. "
There are so MANY who have ripped their hearts out seeking a god to guide them. They've prayed, prayed, and prayed some more. And what do they get? Nothing! Unless they're schitzo and hear voices. But woe to the logical man who honestly looks at every side of the story and chooses not to suspend logical thinking so as to justify the bible's many, many contraditions and just plain lunatic ideas. I guess god doesn't speak to those people. Or it's their fault for not being faithful.
And I don't buy your idea re: other non-christain religions. If you go by the bible, that 'god' does NOT tolerate other gods - so all those billions are doomed for the simple fact of not having been born in a 'christain' nation. Bullshit!
-
aChristian
2,
You wrote: There are so MANY who have ripped their hearts out seeking a god to guide them. They've prayed, prayed, and prayed some more. And what do they get? Nothing!
Really? They might have tried picking up a Bible and reading the words of Jesus Christ. I've found them to be a pretty good guide.
You wrote: And I don't buy your idea re: other non-christain religions. If you go by the bible, that 'god' does NOT tolerate other gods - so all those billions are doomed for the simple fact of not having been born in a 'christain' nation.
The Bible never says that "billions are doomed for the simple fact of not having been born in a 'christain' nation." In fact it clearly implies otherwise. Jesus said, "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." (Luke 12:48)
However, the Watchtower Society teaches that God will soon kill everyone on earth except true Christians. Fortunately, the Bible does not teach that. I believe that when Christ returns He will judge only the Christian world. Two-thirds of the earth's population has never even heard the good news of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India. The Watchtower Society teaches that God will soon kill all of these people. I think they are wrong. This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship.
One thing that leads me to believe this is an incorrect understanding of scripture is that that the Bible tells us that "Judgment begins with the house of God." (1 Peter 4:17) Jesus also said those who will rule as kings with Him will "judge the 12 tribes of Israel." (Luke 22:30) To me this indicates that when Christ returns and draws all true Christians to Himself (Matt. 24:31), they will then determine who among those who have heard the good news of Jesus Christ and not taken it to heart are deserving of death. "The 12 tribes of Israel," spoken of in Luke 22:30, I believe refers to all those who have heard the good news preached by those whom Galatians 6:16 calls "the Israel of God." Remember, the literal "12 tribes of Israel" had all heard the Law of Moses, but few had taken it to heart.
Remember too that it was only the city of Jerusalem that was destroyed in 70 AD, not the entire Roman empire, after those in Jerusalem who heeded Christ's words of warning had escaped. And First Century Jerusalem has long been understood to picture the Christian world, or as Jehovah's Witnesses call it, "Christendom."
Also to be considered is a fact known by most serious students of the Bible, history and science. The flood of Noah's day was a local event, not a global one. God brought that judgment only upon a land that had heard the message of "Noah, a preacher of righteousness," and failed to respond to it. (2 Pet. 2:5) God did not take the lives of those in other parts of then widely populated earth who had not heard Noah's preaching.
Interestingly, Revelation chapters 8 and 9 talk quite a bit about "a third of the world" being judged. And by population, the part of the world claiming Christianity as its religion is almost exactly one-third. (See The World Almanac 1998, page 654)
-
IslandWoman
aChristian,
Thanks for responding. You did post this on the "Objections answered to the Deity of Christ" thread on March 23, 2001.
I respect your ability to answer objections calmly and while refuting those objections not demeaning those whose opinions differ from yours.
I enjoy reading your posts,
IW -
NameWithheld2
So basically you've made up whatever you feel like to explain away the bible. For example, Noah's flood = local. That's NOT what the bible says. But you beleive whatever you want, it's no matter to me.
"This does not sound like the God of love, justice and mercy I worship."
And therein lies the rub - there are as many god's as there are people, since each person creates an image of 'god' in their mind. SO god is different to everyone. That's NOT the god the JW's worship. Nor the one's the Catholics do, for example.
And as for reading the bible for answers, it's QUITE clear that that book has been a very unreliable guide - once again, there are as many 'interpretations' of the bible are there are people reading it. You read it and get one thing, I read it and get something else. And obviously, since when I read it 'god' doesn't 'talk' to me then
Me = 'bad person'
Sorry. Not buying that poison anymore.
-
plmkrzy
I read your post, very interesting, really. Can you address this?
Two-thirds of the earth's population has never even heard the good news of Jesus Christ, including billions of people in lands like China and India.
The scripture you are refering to?
This good news of the Kingdom will be preached through out all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations AND THEN the end will come.So before the end will come, everyone must here the word of God.