Quality of this Forum

by stevieb1 120 Replies latest jw friends

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    aC; Basically you are saying (with scriptual support) that god has deliberately hidden the truth.

    Basically you support the 'secret decoder ring' attitude of many religionists, that there are secrets buried within the text that only the select can understand.

    How can this be if god is desirous none are destroyed? How can a loving god, essentially play games with the truth?

    If god cares and loves us so much, why is information that could convince millions of people as to his existence hidden from view, so well that many people who are sincerely looking never find it?

    It is not an Agatha Christie mystery we are dealing with here. It's people's lives. I find the idea of god playing games like that incomprehensible and morally repugnant. If it were true, it is elitist, deceptive, manipulative, and causes much unhappiness.

    I'd far rather believe that this is just a twisted human idea, rather than the idea of any god.

    You might not agree with me, but I'd like to see your reasoning justifying god's actions, if you believe in this 'doctrine of obscureness'.

    You might immediately say "God doesn't have to justify his actions, he's god". Wrong. Just 'cause he's god doesn't make it right. And I thought that the past 6,000 years were to show God is justified in exerting Sovreignty over Humans, or do you have a view of that?

    You see, looking at it from a slightly different angle, assuming god is real, the story is like this;

    God creates humans.

    God tells them they can do anything but THAT.

    Satan decides he wants power, talks to Eve.

    Eve does THAT, followed by Adam.

    God is pissed, punishes Adam and Eve with eventual death to them and their offspring.

    Some sort of divine wager is set up, whereby God says "Okay, if you know what to do, you do it, and we'll see if it works, and whether I tell the truth or whether the snake told the truth".

    However, God had already taken away one thing that would help it work, eternal life, and added disease, and at various point where humans did get organised (Tower of Babel), immediately knocks it back down again

    He then has a book written, hiding proofs that if stated clearly would mean that everyone would believe in God as a matter of course.

    The fact that the book was so vauge it contributed to huge confusion of religions, as well as people not actually believing in God becasue all the evidence was hidden, is a clear sign of playing ineffable little games. If the truth hadn't been hiden, more people would have the truth, and would be happier, so god hiding the truth makes people unhappy.

    To me, it looks like God in this scenario is playing a nasty game. He sets up a test that he knew they would fail, punishes them for it, and then, knowing the punishment sabotages any attempt at humans governing themselves effectively, sets them that as a test, to show whether he was right or whether Satan was right.

    But, having done that, he doesn't let alone; Babel is a clear example of god breaking his own rules; the game was seeing if humans could govern themselves, when they do WHAMO!

    I tell you quite seriously, if that is the 'truth', I'm pissed with god, he doesn't play fair, and that means God is a despot, the Bible is propoganda, and Satan is a freedom-fighter.

    Of course, you don't have to agree with me. I don't seriously believe the above, it's just a clear trail of logic based upon beliefs I regard as silly, on the basis of where they logically end up. It's far more likely god doesn't exist than anything that absurd being true.

    But I would like to see some refutation of the apparent unreasonableness of hiding the truth.

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • cellomould
    cellomould

    I don't know what this has to do with the quality of this forum, but a few q's:

    why do humans figure so highly in this epic battle between God and Satan anyhow?

    If Satan is so insidious, why did he never think to unravel any other fabric in the universe? He could have really stirred up some trouble by extinguishing all the new stars God created, for example.

    What is so important about control over the human mind, if you are NOT looking at this from a human standpoint?

    Where was Satan in the old testament besides Job ch 1?

    cellomould

    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Ab,

    I believe you have just admitted that there is "scriptural support" for the idea "that there are secrets buried within the text" of scripture, and possibly within the design of the universe, "that only the select can understand." ...

    You say that to you this does not seem right or fair. But I think it is both. For I believe God has chosen to reveal Himself fully only to those who very much want to know Him, and very much want to live righteous lives. I believe that all those who really do, demonstrate these great desires by extending much effort in their quest to know God. Why is it both right and fair for God to reveal Himself fully only to those who very much want to know Him and very much want to live righteous lives? Because the God of the Bible is a God who rewards those who seek righteousness. And it is a great reward for a mere man to be allowed to know the deep things of God.

    You wrote: If god cares and loves us so much, why is information that could convince millions of people as to his existence hidden from view, so well that many people who are sincerely looking never find it?

    I don't think it is hidden from view. I believe God has always given those who truly wish to know Him enough evidence of His existence to be able to put their faith in Him. I believe God has always provided plenty of evidence of His existence to people who are really willing to accept such evidence. I also believe God has chosen to not give all mankind so much evidence of His existence that those who do not wish to live righteous lives would be compelled to do so. For God does not want us to do what is right only because we are sure there is a God who will eventually reward us if we do so. He wants us to do what is right because we care very much about righteousness. Why? Possibly because in the future, after all who have lived righteously have received their rewards, those who were only living righteously in order to receive a reward would no longer choose to do what is right.

    You went on to give a condensed version of your understandings of the Bible. You said that if your understandings of the Bible are "the truth" then "God is a despot."

    The Bible tells us that God loved us all so much that He was willing to let His only Son die for us. (John 3:16) This hardly sounds like a despot. That being the case, I believe you should consider the possibility that your present understandings of the Bible, the ones which make God look like a despot, are incorrect. If you are willing to consider this possibility, and if you really want to live a righteous life, and if you are willing to put forth a real effort to come to know God, I believe He will help you understand the Bible correctly and will provide you with all the evidence of His existence that you need to put your faith in Him.

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Cello,

    You asked: why do humans figure so highly in this epic battle between God and Satan anyhow?

    Some may understand the Bible to be telling a story of "an epic battle between God and Satan." However, the biggest battle I see spoken of in scripture is between human pride and human humility. God tells us that we are all sinners who need to repent and seek His forgiveness. We resent that idea, feeling that our occasional good deeds make us good people who should be acceptable to God. I see Satan as having a relatively small part in the story of scripture.

    You asked: If Satan is so insidious, why did he never think to unravel any other fabric in the universe?

    Maybe he did. Maybe such activities were not mentioned in the Bible because they were not thought to be relevant to our lives.

    You asked: What is so important about control over the human mind, if you are NOT looking at this from a human standpoint?

    The Bible indicates that Satan has never controlled the minds of more than a few people. He has, however, managed to greatly influence our world. The Bible tells us that our primary battles against evil influences have always been fought within ourselves. As James 1:14 and 15 tell us, "Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin." By the way, though they were inspired by God, the writers of the scriptures almost always wrote "from a human standpoint."

    You asked: Where was Satan in the old testament besides Job ch 1?

    Of course, Satan was in the garden of Eden. Rev. 12:9 calls "Satan" "the original serpent." However, you are right in your observation that he is hardly mentioned in the Old Testament. This seems odd. Especially when he and his demons are seen all over the pages of the New Testament, tempting Jesus, possessing men, women and children and keeping Christ and His apostles quite busy casting them all out. I wonder if it might have something to do with the fact that Satan and his demons still for the most part in Old Testament times made their home in heaven.

    Maybe Satan was cast out of heaven about the time of Christ's baptism. That would also explain why Jesus said early in His ministry, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." (Luke 10:18) His words were spoken in the past tense, even in the New world translation. Even though JWs teach that Satan was not cast out of heaven until 1914, or was it 1918? It's hard to keep all their dates straight.

    Though JWs teach that Jesus became king in 1914, we know that can't be true. For the Bible teaches that Christ had already been given "all authority in heaven and on earth" at the time of His resurrection. (Matt. 28:18) And Jesus Himself told the apostle John that he was enthroned in heaven immediately upon his return to heaven. (Rev. 3:21) So no power or authority or enthronement ceremony of any kind could have been given to Jesus in 1914. For He had already been given all of those things nearly 1,900 years earlier. Since JWs are off nearly 1,900 years in the date they say Jesus became king of heaven and earth, maybe they are also off by that many years when it comes to the date they say Satan was cast out of heaven.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Ah yes, the arrogant humble man defense!

    I understand because I am so incredibly humble as compared to the BILLIONS of arrogant humans who refuse to understand like me!

    You and Moses, two peas in a pod.

  • Abaddon
    Abaddon

    aC; Actually, I think your numerology (walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, probably a duck) is just convenient coincidence.

    Why is your numerology right, and the others from other Holy Books wrong? What about the Bible Code? DO you believe in that, and if not, why not.

    You're a nice guy, aChristian, I am sure, but you have not proved one thing, other than your willingness to believe, and your willingness to define disbelief on the part of other as somehow their fault.

    Your interpretation of the Bible makes it seem to more more of a game.

    Maybe god will guide me to insight. It's not as though I haven't tried, thus my suspicion of anyone trying to put the blame on me for not getting it.

    All the best; I'm away this weekend and I think we've reached the end of the rope on this one?

    People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Six,

    You wrote: BILLIONS of arrogant humans who refuse to understand

    I know of no such billions.

    My copy of the World Almanac tells me there are already about 2 billion people in the world who believe that Jesus Christ created our universe. That leaves 4 billion non-Christians. But of those 4 billion, 3 & 3/4 billion have shown a willingness to believe in God. For they now belong to one religious group or another. Their willingness to believe in God, indicates to me a strong possibility that they will accept the good news of Jesus Christ when it is properly presented to them.

    There are only about 1/4 billion people in the world who say they do not now believe in any God. However, I believe that many millions of these people will become believers in the not too distant future. I think it is highly possible that even most atheists will accept the story of scripture when they are presented with a some evidence that the God of the Bible created our universe.

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    But you, you've got it all right now, right?

    Poor me, poor Abaddon, poor Alan. We looked hard, but I guess we just aren't sincere enough eh? We just don't want to believe. *so sad for us*

    Since all the evidence points away from the bible currently (mental gymnastics notwithstanding), what is the likelyhood that it is going to suddenly start looking like the truth?

  • aChristian
    aChristian

    Six,

    You wrote: I'm gonna have t'git myself a 40oz. Malt Liquer and study up on this.
    Maybe you shouldn't drink so much while your studying. : )

    You wrote: But you, you've got it all right now, right?

    Nope. I don't understand a lot of things. And I admit that some of my present understandings may be in error. But one thing I know for certain. There is an all powerful God who created our universe. And His name is Jesus Christ.

    You wrote: We just don't want to believe.

    I'll leave that judgment to God. I also think you may yet become believers after seeing yet more evidence in the not too distant future.

  • plmkrzy
    plmkrzy

    At the risk of sounding really stupid, was satan
    and his demons cast down to earth before or after
    the old test?

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