Quality of this Forum

by stevieb1 120 Replies latest jw friends

TR

achristian,
But, as you have noticed, it is for the most part a vast spiritual wasteland.
To make matters worse, because of the very bad experience all of these people have had with the JW religion, most of them are very skeptical of anything "religious," and are thus very resistant to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
You say these things like you know what the "truth" is and that we're dummies for not believing it.
I don't know wether or not to award you the coveted "Head Up Your Ass" trophy or to ask you if this is really what you believe.
TR
"YK is his name, false prophecy is his game"
aChristian

Ab and TR,
I wrote: [This forum] is for the most part a vast spiritual wasteland. To make matters worse, because of the very bad experience all of these people have had with the JW religion, most of them are very skeptical of anything "religious," and are thus very resistant to the true gospel of Jesus Christ.
What part of this statement do you think is incorrect? By far, most discussions which take place here contain very little spiritual, intellectual or philosophical content. Several people have recently left this board for this very reason. I know that after leaving the JWs I was for many years very skeptical of all religious claims, as we all rightly should be. That included being skeptical of the basic claims of Christianity, until I found what I considered to be compelling evidence that the story of scripture is true. Of course what is sufficient evidence for me may not be for you. The fact is, there is seldom enough evidence of anything to convince someone of something which they are not willing to believe.
Englishman

Stevie1,
Look. People here are posting on subjects that interest them. This is a discussion board for people who have an interest in JW's. It's a bit like a tavern; you meet all sorts of people here and talk about many different things.
Larc is making a point with his fluffy posts, fair enough, but I just don't click on to most fluffy stuff anyway.
I don't click on to long religious dissertations either.
Englishman.
Bring on the dancing girls!
Abaddon

aChristian; you posted this whilst I was writing my last post in this thread;
If you really are willing to become a servant of God, I believe you will find all the evidence you need to put your faith in Him. However, if you are not really willing to serve God, I don't think you will ever find enough evidence to compel you to acknowledge His existence. For the Bible tells us that God has chosen to save that time for Judgment Day.
Please, god (a useful expression even if one doesn't believe), tell me you don't believe that!
You are presupposing that god exists, and that "If you really are willing to become a servant of God" you will find the evidence for this.
Therefore, you assume those "not really willing to serve God" will not find enough evidence to compel them to acknowledge his existence.
This is seriously unsound thinking!! The evidence of god, or the lack thereof, is not associated with the level of desire one has to serve god. The level of evidence of god, or lack thereof, is PURELY based upon what evidence there is for god existing.
Also, you are putting the burden of responsibility on the creation, not on the creator. In other words, from your presuppositional starting point, if we don't believe in god, it is our fault for NOT WANTING to, rather than using of our (allegedly god given) minds in weighing the evidence and coming to a negative conclusion.
Surely it is the creators responsibility to make sure there is no reasonable doubt as to its existence in its creation's minds? What justification could there be for NOT making sure there is no reasonable doubt? Don't argue absolute proof removes freedom of choice, that's not a sound arguement; the angels that fell had free choice and KNEW god existed.
If god cares, why is it less able to deliver its message than the Book of the Month Cub? Not only is there no satisfactory proof of the existence of god (when logically there should be), you have the fact, ignored by the Christian apologetics here, that other religions use the SAME ARGUEMENTS for the existence of things you cannot see, and believe JUST as sincerely their (almost always) incompatable set of beliefs.
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
JanH

aChristian,
Many who leave the JWs over intellectual, religious or ethical concerns also reject Christianity, that is true. Once people have rejected the claims of the WTS, why should they consider the claims of the Bible or Christianity to be above criticism? Wouldn't it be intellectual dishonesty to apply stringent standards to WTS claims, yet accepting mainstream Christian doctrine "on faith"?
The debates that have been here over religious issues have not left the believers on the side of the evidence. I, and many like me, were "normal" Christians after we left the JWs, taking seriously the slogan "don't throw the baby out with the bathwater." More and more, I found that intellectual honesty dictated that I side with non-believers. Typically, believers here resort to the same special pleading and appeals to blind faith that is ultimately at the root of JWdom. In this, JWdom is merely an extreme form of Christianity.
The fact is, there is seldom enough evidence of anything to convince someone of something which they are not willing to believe.
This is of course an ad hominem. That we don't believe is due to unwillingness to accept "evidence" (naturally, when asked to see this evidence, other excuses take over) or to some moral failing on our part. Your belief system can simply not accomodate people who honestly wanted to believe as I once did, but found the evidence not only insufficient, but totally lacking. And I dare say I have studied the topic to greater depth than the vast majority here (not a let-down, simply a fact to demonstrate my commitment to the topic).
- Jan
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Abaddon

aChristian; I've gotta go home. You defend your statement on a spiritual wasteland by asking questions when you have not yet addressed the points I raised in my response to that. I would rather you answer those questions FIRST, and then tomorrow I can explain why theists assuming they have the solus on spirituality gets on my nerves.
Fair, or don't you want to answer the points I made?
People living in glass paradigms shouldn't throw stones...
Gozz

I get so tired of theists running the poor excuse for an arguement around that you rehash above. It makes me wonder about their ability to think critically! Are you gonna say we are 'bitter' next? That way you'll be conforming to the conditioning even more closely!!
Many people are perhaps obsessed with the idea of finding compellin evidence for belief in God and Scripture. Where then is faith? By attempting to provide proof of the spiritual using alone the logical, it's a road that leads nowhere. That is part of the problem.
wonderwoman77

Stevie...Well first of all, there is just more than the main forum. There are forums to discuss beliefs and have more religious discussions on this page. Maybe right now people on this page are sick of always talking about the serious and want more light hearted stuff....the board should be here to give the people here what they need.
aChristian...you meantion that you can only find God in the Bible or something like that, why? Cannot God be found other ways. Does one have to be a Christian to be worthy of a relationship with God? Are you saying all members of eastern religions are wrong?
I am just more open minded. I think God can be found many ways. Spirituality is a personal journey and one should follow his/her path.
aChristian

AB,
You wrote: You are presupposing that god exists
No, I am not. As I said, after leaving the JWs I was a nonbeliever for many years until I found evidence which convinced me of His existence.
You wrote: you assume those "not really willing to serve God" will not find enough evidence to compel them to acknowledge his existence.
Yes, I do. There is not enough evidence of anything to compel people to believe in something they really do not want to believe in. Remember the first O.J. Simpson trial? Some people still believe the world is flat and say all evidence to the contrary, photos from space and the like, has been faked.
You wrote: Surely it is the creators responsibility to make sure there is no reasonable doubt as to its existence in its creation's minds?
You use the word "surely." However, as a Christian, I value Jesus Christ's opinion more "surely" than I value yours. The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is the Creator of our universe. (Col. 1:16) And it clearly indicates that He does not share your opinion of "the creator's responsibility" in this area.
Mark tells us that whenever Jesus spoke to crowds of people which contained both His friends and His enemies, "He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples he explained everything. " (Mark 4:34) Why did Jesus speak in parables? Why did He go to all the trouble of telling such often hard to understand stories to crowds which gathered to hear Him speak? Was the purpose of Christ's parables to "make sure there is no reasonable doubt" in people's minds that Jesus was in fact the Christ? No, it was not. In fact often Jesus' purpose in speaking the way that He did was just the opposite. Jesus told His disciples, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to others I speak in parables, so that though seeing they may not see and though hearing they may not understand." (Luke 8:10, see also Mt. 13:10-15)
Jesus understood that many of His listeners had hearts hardened against Him, and from such people, through the use of parables, He deliberately withheld "the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of God." He did so by incorporating into those parables elements which He knew His enemies would find fault with and would end up stumbling over. This does not to me sound like a Creator who feels it is His "responsibility to make sure there is no reasonable doubt as to [His] existence in [His] creation's minds."
Jan,
You wrote: Once people have rejected the claims of the WTS, why should they consider the claims of the Bible or Christianity to be above criticism?
They should not.
You wrote: Wouldn't it be intellectual dishonesty to apply stringent standards to WTS claims, yet accepting mainstream Christian doctrine "on faith"?
Yes, it would.
You wrote: Your belief system can simply not accomodate people who honestly wanted to believe as I once did, but found the evidence not only insufficient, but totally lacking.
Yes, it can. I believe that those who are honestly willing to believe will eventually find enough evidence to put their faith in the God of the Bible. It took me quite a few years. It may take some a bit longer. Your life is not over yet. The apostle Paul spent many years as a strong opposer of Jesus Christ before he found enough evidence to change his mind. If and when you do the same, I believe you may like Paul become not just a believer but a powerful evangelist.
JanH

AChristian,
You now seem to go back on the position you have expressed repeatedly above.
I believe that those who are honestly willing to believe will eventually find enough evidence to put their faith in the God of the Bible.
Frankly, it is not honest examination of evidence that characterizes the believers on this board. When pressed to provide this evidence, we get back more or less the same tired cliches we were fed by the Watchtower. Look, for example, to any thread asking for evidence for a historical Christ. We get Rex or someone else posting the same spurious list of quotations that have been debunked countless times on this board and elsewhere.
Your faith and conviction in Christianity is an emotional one, like faith and trust in the WTS is an emotional state in JWs, very much detached from the actual "evidence" they will publicly claim convinced them in the first place. This is evident every time believers are asked to present this evidence, because it is not there.
It took me quite a few years. It may take some a bit longer. Your life is not over yet. The apostle Paul spent many years as a strong opposer of Jesus Christ before he found enough evidence to change his mind. If and when you do the same, I believe you may like Paul become not just a believer but a powerful evangelist.
Well, Paul claimed to have had a supernatural revelation. Probably something happened to him. Of course, believers in countless religions have boasted very similar conversion experiences. It is indeed a branch of my studies dealing with this, in "psychology of religion." Paul was, as we can see from his writings, a very emotional person. He refered to a number of "supersupernatural experiences" which we could just as well call hallucinations. Read about the alleged experiences of Muhammad, and ask yourself: is it intellectually fair to reject Muhammad's conversion and still believe in Paul's?
- Jan
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