Ab,
I asked Gweedo to E mail me privately because I told him, "I do not have time to debate with all the Bible critics on this board." You responded that, "Individual correspondence will take as long or longer than posting here." It obviously takes longer to answer several people's questions than it does to answer one person's questions. The fact is you just asked me a bunch of questions which I don't have time to answer right now. I also was not interested in discussing this matter with someone who does not seem to me to have an open mind. For instance, you just stated that, "There is no proof of god that equates with the evidence related to the OJ Simpson trial or the photographic proof that the Earth is a sphere. If there were evidence of possibly the former or especially the latter strength, then we might be talking about proving that god exists. But there isn't." It seems to me that an open minded person would have said that, "I am not now aware of the existence of any proof of god that equates ..."
You wrote: I also find it utterly remarkable, after having been a Witness, that you consider yourself able to judge whether someone is "not really willing to serve God."
I do not consider myself able to judge such a thing. I never said or implied that I was. All I said was that there is very seldom enough evidence to convince someone of something they strongly wish not to believe. I also said that I do not believe God will ever present us with so much evidence of His existence that even those who do not want to believe in Him would now be forced to do so. I also said that I believe all who are really willing to believe in God will eventually find enough evidence to put their faith in Him. In saying that I have not judged anyone. For I believe many who now appear to be unwilling to believe in God may actually be very willing to believe in Him, and will become believers when they find enough evidence of God's existence. I believe the time is coming when "Those who have insight" will "lead the many to righteousness." The time to which I refer, of course, is "the end of time," a time the Bible tells us that "knowledge will increase.'' (Dan.12:3,4) I believe the Bible may here be speaking of future understandings of both science and scripture which will help many who now do not believe in God to accept Jesus Christ as their Lord.
As I said, I do not have time right now to discuss what I am about to post with all those here who may criticize the validity of the "evidence" I will here present. I posted this material here a while back and a couple years ago over at H2O. I do not claim this is "undeniable" evidence. For, as I have said, I believe it is God's desire to allow those who do not wish to acknowledge His existence the ability to do so until Judgment Day.
Evidence Of The Christian God by Michael G. Satterlee ( [email protected])
All Scripture quotations are from The New International Version of the Bible except where otherwise indicated.
Is it wrong to ask for evidence of the Christian God?
The Bible asks us to believe some fantastic things. Things that seem too good to be true. Things that some people say are so incredible that they cannot possibly believe them without "proof."
Among the incredible things the Bible asks us to believe is that a man who was born on earth 2,000 years ago, a man the Bible calls "Jesus Christ," actually created our universe. The Bible also asks us to believe that this man named "Jesus," before being born as a human being, actually existed in the form of God Himself. And, the Bible tells us that while Jesus Christ "was God," He decided to empty Himself of God's form and become a mere man. The Bible says He did this so He could then, as a man, die a torturous death on a Roman cross. (John 1:1-3; Colossians 1:16,17; Philippians 2:5-8)
The Bible goes on to say that while living on earth as a man, this "Jesus Christ" willingly suffered and died on that cross, for the purpose of paying a death penalty that was not His responsibility to pay, a death penalty that had actually been given to each one of us because of our unrighteousness. (Romans 3:23; 6:23; 1Peter 2:21, 22; 1John 4:10) And, as if all that were not hard enough to believe, the Bible then asks us to believe something that many find even more unbelievable. For It says that if we will only believe in our hearts that Jesus Christ died for us, as payment in full for all our unrighteousness, God will release us from the death penalty that is due us for our sins, and in its place He will reward us with "immortality." (John 3:16, 36; Acts 10:43; Romans 4:23-25; 10:9; John11:25, 26; 1Corinthians 15:54)
Many people have been taught these incredible things from childhood and so have little trouble accepting them to be true. Some of these people have never stopped to think how difficult these Bible teachings may be for others to believe. Some who believe the story of Jesus Christ as told in the Bible actually criticize those who find it hard to believe for not having "enough faith."
But if a Supreme Being does exist, and if this Supreme Being cares for the human race as the Bible says He does, would He really want us to believe every incredible story we hear? No. He certainly would not. For if we did, we would quickly be led astray in all sorts of possibly very dangerous directions. The fact is, the Bible tells us that God does not even want us to accept the story of Scripture as true unless we first "prove all things" to ourselves. For the Bible itself tells us that those with "noble character" have always "examined" what they have been taught, to see if it is really "true." (1 Thessalonians 5:21; Acts 17:11)
So, today when a skeptic asks a Christian to "prove" to her or to him the existence of the Christian God such a request should not be considered unreasonable. Rather, I believe, it is more unreasonable to expect someone to accept the incredible story of Jesus Christ as told in the Bible without some "proof." It is my firm belief that God does exist and that He understands and sympathizes with those who, in this age of modern science, cannot bring themselves to accept the Bible's story of Jesus Christ as true, without some strong evidence that it really is true. And, because of God's great love for those who now require scientific "proof" that the Bible's story of Jesus Christ is true, I am convinced that God now provides such people with such "proof."
I believe that the evidence that will here be presented will be enough to convince many sincere seekers of truth that the story of Jesus Christ contained in the Bible may indeed be true. If you are willing to consider the possibility that the Bible's story of Jesus Christ contained in the Bible may be true, but simply require some evidence of its validity before you are able to give it serious consideration, I hope you read these next few pages. I believe you will find them quite interesting.
I contend that not only did Jesus Christ create our universe, but that He "signed" His name "in the sun, moon and stars" to all of His cosmic creations. And I contend that He did so in a way that not only identifies Himself as their Creator, but also identifies Himself as our Savior. To support these contentions I offer the following evidence, evidence which I believe clearly connects the Jesus Christ of Scripture with the design, and thus the Designer, of our universe.
1. The Bible often uses the # 40 in connection with highly significant people and events.
Most readers of Scripture are aware that the Bible often makes special use of the # 40.
Rain fell from the sky for "40 days and 40 nights" causing the flood of Noah's day. (Genesis 7:11,12) Moses was on Mount Sinai communicating with God on two separate occasions, each time for "40 days and 40 nights." (Exodus 24:18; 34:28) Afterwards the Israelites wandered in the wilderness for "40 years" before entering the land God had promised them. (Numbers 32:13; Joshua 23:5) The first three kings of Israel, Saul, David and Solomon, each ruled for "40 years." (Acts 13:21; 1Kings 2:10,11; 11:42) Jonah, best known for spending "three days and three nights" in the belly of "a great fish", was ordered by God to prophesy that the city of Nineveh would be overthrown in "forty more days." (Jonah 1:17; 3:1-4) Before beginning His ministry Jesus fasted for "40 days and 40 nights." (Luke 4:1,2) These are only a few of the times the Bible uses the # 40 in a prominent way.
2. The # 40 was meant to point to Jesus Christ.
It is my belief that the # 40 was used so often and so prominently in the Bible for the purpose of directing our attention to Jesus Christ. Like the 40 days of rain which washed away all wickedness from the land in Noah's day, Christ's coming was prophesied to also be "like showers watering the earth." For, like the rains which cleansed the land in the days of Noah, the Bible tells us that the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ "cleanses us from all sin." (Genesis 6:11-17; Psalms 72:6; 1John 1:7)
As Moses mediated the Old Covenant between God and the Israelites during 40 day periods of time, Jesus Christ now acts as the Mediator of the New Covenant which He, by His death, established with Christians. (Exodus 19:3-9; Matthew 26:28; Hebrews 8:6; 9:15)
As the Israelites wandered aimlessly in the Sinai wilderness for 40 years prior to the time God gave them their promised land, all mankind was lost in a spiritual wilderness before God gave us our promised Savior. (Luke 19:10)
As Saul, who ruled for 40 years, was Israel's first king, Jesus Christ is "the First and the Last" "King" of "the Israel of God." (Revelation 1:17; 1Timothy 6:15; Galatians 6:16)
Long after David Had ruled Israel for 40 years Isaiah prophesied that the promised Savior, Jesus Christ, would "reign on David's throne and over his kingdom." For this reason Jesus was called "the son of David." (Isaiah 9:6,7; Luke 1:32; Matthew 1:1)
Many spiritual connections can be found in the Bible between Solomon, who ruled all Israel for 40 years, and Jesus Christ. Solomon, for instance, built God's Temple in Jerusalem. While Jesus Christ built God's spiritual Temple. (1Kings 6:1-38; Matthew 16:15-18; 1Corinthians 3:11,16) For this reason, and others, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ is "greater than Solomon." (Matthew 12:42)
The spiritual connection between Jonah, who prophesied that Nineveh would be overthrown in "40 more days,” and Jesus Christ was firmly established by Jesus Himself. For He said, “as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish", so Christ would "be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth”, after His death and before His resurrection. (Matthew 12:40)
Just before He began His ministry Jesus Christ fasted for 40 days. At the end of those 40 days "He was hungry." And so were those who had been eagerly anticipating the arrival of mankind's long awaited Savior. For their "hunger" had been "for righteousness", a hunger which only Jesus Christ could satisfy, and a righteousness which only Jesus Christ Himself could give them. (Matthew 4:2; 5:6; John 6:35; Romans 3:21,22)
3. Just as the biblical # 40 points to Jesus Christ, so do the biblical #s 4 and 400
The #s 4 and 40 can both easily be seen as abbreviated forms of the # 400. It is not surprising then to find that the Bible also uses the #s 4 and 400 in the same way that it does the # 40, to point to Jesus Christ.
For instance, in regard to the # 4, the Bible's creation account tells us that the sun, moon and stars first appeared in earth's skies on the 4th creative day. And the Bible, which tells the story of Jesus Christ in 4 "gospels", connects this 4th "day" of creation with Jesus Christ by calling Him "the light of the world." (Genesis 1:14-19; John 8:12)
One well known example of the Bible's use of the # 400 involves the period of time that Abraham's descendants were "enslaved and oppressed" before being set free from their bondage in Egypt. The Bible tells us that period of time was "400 years." The Bible also says that, much like the Israelites, all mankind had once been enslaved and oppressed for a long period of time. However, this slavery and oppression was by sin and death, from which, the Bible tells us, Jesus Christ came to set us free. We are told Christ did so by buying with His own life both God's forgiveness and immortality for all who will accept Him as their Lord. (Genesis 15:13; Matthew 20:28; Luke 4:18; Ephesians 1:7; John 3:16; 1Corinthians 15:54) Interestingly, the Bible tells us that the Israelites' 400 years of oppression and slavery came to an end immediately following a plague in which God took the life of every firstborn son in Egypt. It also tells us that all mankind was offered freedom from the oppression and slavery of sin and death immediately following the death of God's Firstborn Son, Jesus Christ. (Exodus 11:4,5; Hebrews 11:28; Colossians 1:15; Hebrews 1:5,6)
A thorough examination of the Bible's symbolic use of the #s 4, 40 and 400 shows that the Bible always uses these #s to point to Jesus Christ.
4. The # 400 which fills the Bible (often in abbreviated forms) for the purpose of directing attention to Jesus Christ also fills "the sun, moon and stars."
The Sun and the Moon
The sun's diameter is exactly 400 X the size of the moon's diameter. ( "864,000 mi." vs. "2,160 mi." according to the 1998 edition of The World Almanac, pages 290 and 291, or "1,400,000 km." vs. "3500 km." according to NASA's article "Geometry of Solar Eclipses" @ http://sunearth.gsfc.nasa.gov/eclipse/SEhelp/SEgeometry.html ) But remember, it makes no difference whether you measure their diameters in miles, meters or toothpicks. This 400 X ratio will always be the same.
References such as those just cited tell us that the sun's distance from the earth is also always about 400 X greater than the moon's distance from the earth, though this ratio is very seldom exact.
Solar Eclipses
NASA's article which was just referenced, "Geometry of Solar Eclipses," tells us that "Though the Sun is 400 times larger than the Moon, it is also 400 times farther from Earth. A direct consequence of this fortuitous geometry is that during a total solar eclipse, the Moon occults the Sun with a nearly perfect fit." Thus we can see that it is because of the relationship, which the earth, sun and moon have with the # 400, that we are able to observe what has been called "the greatest spectacle in nature," a total eclipse of the sun. Consequently, when a total eclipse of the sun occurs, and the moon then covers the sun in the sky like a lid fits its own jar, all who have a basic knowledge of astronomy have their attention immediately drawn to the # 400. (For more on this subject, see National Geographic, May 1992, page 41.)
It is also interesting to note that, "The average time between total eclipse paths crossing one location (being able to observe a total eclipse of the sun from any one spot on earth) is about 400 years." (See The Sun - Our Star, Robert W. Noyes, 1982, page 145)
The Stars of our Galaxy
Carl Sagan, in his books Cosmos (1980, page 299) and The Demon Haunted World (1995, page 330), estimated the # of stars in our galaxy at "400 billion."
The Galaxies of our Universe
Astronomers also tell us that it is possible that the # of galaxies in our universe may actually equal the # of stars in our galaxy. (see The Left Hand Of Creation: The Origin And Evolution Of The Expanding Universe, John D. Barrow and Joseph Silk, 1983, Page 25)
5. These cosmic 400s serve as "signs" directing our attention to Jesus Christ.
I believe that God was referring to these 400s in the sun, moon and stars when He spoke the words recorded in Genesis 1:14. There we are told God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years." (New American Standard Bible) I am also convinced that Jesus Christ was referring to these astronomical 400s when He said, "There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars." (Luke 21:25) And I believe that Jesus spoke of these same cosmic 400s, when He told us, "The sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky." (Matthew 24:30)
Keep in mind that the Greek word then used by Christ, which is translated into English as "appear," according to An Expository Dictionary Of New Testament Words by W.E.Vine, refers not just to what appears to the eye, but also to "what appears to the mind." It should also be here noted that Jesus Christ often used the title "the Son of Man" when referring to Himself. This was an obvious reference to the prophet Daniel's well known and powerful Messianic prophecy. (Daniel 7:13,14)
Since the # 400, and abbreviated forms thereof, fills both our sky and the Bible, it seemed reasonable to this reader of Scripture to at least consider the possibility that if a Supreme Being designed and created the universe, that same Supreme Being may have also inspired the Bible. After considering this possibility I became convinced of something even more compelling. For I now firmly believe that the Creator of the Universe incorporated the # 400, and abbreviated forms thereof, into both His cosmic creations and into His Word the Bible for the specific purpose of personally identifying Himself as Jesus Christ.
How do the #s 400, 40 and 4 personally identify Jesus Christ as both the Creator of the Universe and the God of the Bible? They do so because they are short forms, or sign forms, of the # 4000, the exact # of years that passed between the creation of Adam and the earthly birth of Jesus Christ, according to the Bible's own very precise chronological, historical record. Serving as "signs" of the exact time of His birth, the #s 400, 40 and 4 were, I believe, meant by Jesus Christ to remind us of Himself in much the same way that many people are now reminded of the United States of America when they hear someone mention the year of that nation's birth, 1776.
And because these long and short form "signs" of Jesus Christ, in effect His signature and His initials, fill "the sun, moon and stars" and the Bible, we have strong reason to believe that He is the Author of both.
Why would Jesus Christ choose to identify Himself with # signs representing the time of His earthly birth as counted from the time of Adams creation? For two reasons. First, because it was in Eden, Adam's garden home, that God first promised to send mankind a Savior. (Gen. 3:15) And second, because from the time of Adam an elaborate chronological, historical record was kept, which has been preserved in the Bible, that we can now use to confirm the time of Christ's birth, as counted from the time of Adam's creation.
Please do not misunderstand me. I am certainly not suggesting that human beings have been on earth for only 6,000 years (4,000 years from Adam to Christ plus another 2,000 years from Christ to the present). For paleontologists, anthropologists and archeologists all assure us that mankind has lived on earth far longer than 6,000 years. And I believe them.
6. Was Adam the "first" Man?
This seeming conflict between Bible chronology and well established human history is easily resolved by understanding that the Bible does not tell us that Adam was, in an absolute chronological sense, "the first man." I believe that God simply used Adam, and orchestrated the events in Eden, to illustrate the unrighteous condition of all mankind. (This understanding also answers the often asked question, "Where did Cain get his wife?")
The only place in Scripture Adam is referred to as the "first" man is in 1 Cor.15:45-47. There Adam is called "the first man." But there we also find that Jesus is called "the second man." The context shows that the writer of those words was referring to Adam as the "first" man only in his relative chronological position to Christ. In other words, since Adam came "first" and Christ came "second," Adam came before Christ.
Traditional thinking Christians will no doubt also raise other objections to this understanding of Scripture. I am fully prepared to answer any and all such objections. However, to do so here would detract from the subject at hand, evidence of the Christian God.
7. 4,000 years from Adam to Christ
With this understanding of Scripture in mind, we have no reason to insist that Adam was the first man. For, as we have seen, the Bible does not tell us that Adam was the first man in an absolute chronological sense. And since the Bible does not say that Adam was the first man who ever lived we have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Bible's chronological, historical record which tells us that Jesus Christ was born only 4,000 years after God created Adam.
And, since the Bible's chronological, historical record tells us that Jesus Christ was born exactly 4,000 years after God created Adam, we have every reason to believe that the 400s, 40s and 4s which fill both our sky and the Bible do so for the purpose of personally identifying Jesus Christ as both the Creator of the universe and the Savior of the world.
8. Jesus Christ is "the light of the world."
That Jesus Christ chose to put signs identifying Himself as our Creator and Savior into the sun, moon and stars, rather than into something else, like earth's land or sea, seems quite fitting. For Jesus Himself boldly declared, "I am the light of the world." (John 8:12) With this in mind it seems appropriate to here mention what I believe to be one more occurrence of "the sign of the Son of Man" in the sun and the moon. For "The Sun is 400 thousand times as bright as the full moon." (1998 edition of The World Almanac, page 290)
9. God's design or unmatched coincidence?
If I am wrong, and Jesus Christ did not put these #s into the Bible and into "the sun, moon and stars" to direct our attention to Himself as both our Creator and our Savior, then atheistic astronomers must be right. For they maintain that the relationship which the earth, sun and moon have with the biblical # 400 is simply "a coincidence unmatched in the solar system." (see National Geographic May 1992, page 41)
The thoughts I have here presented I hope to discuss in much greater depth and detail in a book I am now writing. It will contain a thorough study of both biblical history and ancient secular history. Together they will be shown to document the fact that exactly 4,000 years passed between the creation of Adam (in 4005 BC) and the birth of Jesus Christ (in 5 BC). This book is tentatively entitled The Sign Of The Son Of Man.
