Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  leavingwt

  Tammy, you wrote:

  But I think arguing over it can become a trap. You could be right, and I could certainly be wrong. But in the end, whether there is predestination for all or free will or any combination of the two, should any of this make a difference to us?

  It makes a difference to me. It gives us an idea of just what type of God we're worshipping, IMHO. Is he partial, sentencing billions to eternity in Hell (however defined) before they're even born? Or, were we created with the capacity to love Him and choose Him? Did he do what is necessary so that everyone would have a fair chance at evaluating his offer?
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  tec

  How hard is it to know and reject Christ?--It's pretty hard is my guess.

  Agreed. It would be like saying, "you know? I realized you were right about this whole love your neighbor, and love God, and treat others with compassion and mercy thing. But meh, I don't really want part of that anymore."

  And I think know is the key word here. If you didn't know Him, as NAC said, then you can't really reject Him.

  Tammy
• 

  PSacramento

  God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten son so that those that BELIEVE IN HIM shall have eternal life.

  Now, God loved the world, not just the selected few, but, only those that believe in Jesus will have eternal life.

  So, what happens to all those that DON't?

  Well, we can say what we THINK in the most simplest of terms - they die and will not be ressurected.

  Or we can say what we HOPE will happen - God knows why people doubt, God knows why we CHOOSE to doubt his only Son and people will be judged accordingly, it won't be a "blanket statement", for that would condem millions or billions to death with no hope and God being a God of love will not do that.

  All will have a chance to choose to be saved, or not, but it will always be their choice.

  Some, like children and newborns will be exempt of course, and those that have never seen the true message of Jesus, it will be revealed to them and they will have to chose.
• 

  tec

  LeavingWT - You're right. Of course you're right. And I believe that we were created with the capacity to love Him and choose Him. I think that is the point of everyone being invited. And the danger of getting bogged down in individual scripture, (which is why I don't like to debate this scripture with that scripture) is that we don't always remember to keep the love that all scripture teaches foremost in mind. We don't always remember to listen to Jesus' voice.

  I so think the truth can be found in scripture. 1Peter does say that God is patient in bringing the end, wanting everyone to come into repentance. If God had set it up so that this was impossible, then why be patient about something that would never happen? So it all depends on what kind of eyes you use to look at scripture, and if you're also listening as you read.

  Tammy
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  tec

  Well, just as we are patient and loving with our children, with those we love and hold dear, then how can God, who is so far superior to us, NOT BE?
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  leavingwt

  Tammy -- Thank you for your comments. I always enjoy them. I hope, too, that you can understand how many of us indeed can become "bogged down" as this matter is potentially of such serious concern. (Some like to think that non-believers have hastily thrown away previous beliefs. When in fact, in many cases, this was only done after extensive meditation/research/soul-searching. In the end, we each choose what makes sense to us, individually.)
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  Deputy Dog

  tec

  At worst, its a misunderstanding. Not a rejection.

  Yes, it is a rejection. You have made yourself very clear that you reject the bible as the Word of God.

  I so think the truth can be found in scripture. 1Peter does say that God is patient in bringing the end, wanting everyone to come into repentance. If God had set it up so that this was impossible, then why be patient about something that would never happen? So it all depends on what kind of eyes you use to look at scripture, and if you're also listening as you read.

  If you read it in context, the writer is telling them to be patient because they were worried about loved ones being left behind at the coming of Christ. He's saying he will save ALL his children. Not every human in the world.
• 

  Deputy Dog

  PSac

  This is the total opposite of what DD believes (as I understand it). As a depraved, sinful human, it is impossible for anyone to choose Christ

  And he MAY be right and the JW's MAY be right too.

  That's the problem with JWs they interpret the bible, I don't, I'll just quote it and let you see it for yourself. Just like you did hear. You said you don't like what the bible said.

  ...yep, that one, you can keep that one, I don't like him very much.

  You don't like the God of the bible? OK. I get that. I can't keep the GOD of the bible, He keeps me.

  I agree, so ALL believers are predestined, is that what you are saying?

  Yes. That's what I've been saying all along. You quoted John 3:16 and I agree that whosoever believes will be saved just like you do. The difference is, I also know from scripture that the very same people that believe were also predestined to do so.

  The problem with "sola scitura" is that doctrines ARE interprtations of biblical passages, so God is NOt speaking via the Bibel, but via the interpreter, as in the case of Fred Franz for example.

  That's not true. I have used clear passages from the bible to show or explain what I believe and you are free to agree with the bible or to disagree. I don't want anyone to trust my "interpretation". I'll simply ask if you believe the scripture or not.

  I don't take any mans word for what the bible says. I can read it for myself. That goes for Calvin, Luther, Edwards, or anyone else. I don't agree with any of them on every issue.

  Leaving

  For the believer subscribing to Sola Scriptura, our opinions are of no concern. God has spoken clearly through the pages of the Bible. Doctrines are either true or false, etc. Using the Bible alone, we can pick specific teachings of men and label them as true or false.

  I agree, and any "personal revelation" is always tested in the light of scripture.
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  PSacramento

  That's the problem with JWs they interpret the bible, I don't, I'll just quote it and let you see it for yourself

  You interpret it, just like everyone else does, because you put what you beleive to be the message as the reason why you QUOTE a praticular scripture, hence you are interpreting it.

  Like everyone else.

  I can't keep the GOD of the bible, He keeps me.

  "I will make my home in you and you in me"...

  We keep God in US, the kingdom of God is IN US, that is the personal relationship we have with God through Jesus, WE keep God in Us and God keeps US in "Him".

  The difference is, I also know from scripture that the very same people that believe were also predestined to do so.

  We will have to disagee on this interpretation of what you KNOW, as I know it to be NOT the case, but I still love you my Christian Brother :)

  Even if I do have a cold, I promise not to sneeze on you ;)
• 

  Deputy Dog

  PSac

  Even if I do have a cold, I promise not to sneeze on you ;)

  That's OK I'm stone dead in my sin. Your cold can't hurt a dead man.