Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus? (page 16)

THE GLADIATOR

I think StoneWall has raised a very strong and fundamental topic. It seems to me that Christians have a really difficult time with these core issues and they would rather avoid them and think about the fluffy clouds of heaven and the personal relationship with the Lord, rather than focus on the fundamental problems of the Christian belief.

I agree with most of your comment including the one above. To the modern Christian Jesus is the Word. The bible is just a handy book to pick and choose from. What does not fit is dismissed as opinion. But in argument it suddenly becomes the final authority to quote from. The Holy Word of God. Switching between these two stances they are able to confound the infidel. They think!

I have been criticized for calling them 'modern' because they say the early Christians did not have a Bible. True but they had Christ to talk to. Then the Spirit inspired Paul to lay out what it was all really about. Some Christians do not agree with Paul and question the accuracy of translation with Jesus words. They rely on a personal relationship with Jesus who telepathically updates them. The Holy Bible is, it appears, no longer Holy.

I have for the moment given up trying to get straight answers from many modern Christians. They are sincere and pleasant people who wish the world to be a better place than it really is. I am happy for them but fail to see how the Bible supports their modern faith.

exjdub

Oh, yes, the old, "I'm smarter than you are because you are a Christian, and I'm not" ploy. Seen it too many times to be impressed by it. In fact, it's really pitiful when people like you have to play it. That's fine.

XJW4EVR,

Straw Man argument. It is interesting that you played the above game, especially considering the arrogant tone of your initial response to me. Remember it was you who said that you didn't have time to "instruct" me, as if I was a subordinate of yours, when I only offered an observation and an opinion. You also made sure to let me know that you didn't think I knew the difference between evidence in a trial vs. how "history is done", so please don't try to comment that I am the one who thinks he is smarter. I think you have made it abundantly clear who you think the smarter one is. But for the record, I don't think I am smarter than you and I absolutely don't think I am smarter than you "because you are a Christian". Sounds like you have an inferiority complex because you are uncomfortable with being a Christian. I do, however, admit to having a strong Bulls@#$ meter and your explanation of Jesus' words made the meter go off the chart.

To the rest of the Christians who have commented (especially TEC as she was open to the big picture and willing to consider the core issues), please understand that I actually respect your faith very much. If your faith in Jesus sustains you and gets you through life I am happy for you, and I am not saying that facetiously, I really do mean it. I don't pretend to have the answers as to why we are here, how we got here, who's god/gods are the "true" ones, etc. I just know that I don't believe in the God of the Bible anymore. I have things that I believe in that would be things that you don't believe in...and it's OK. For those of you who go about your faith quietly and who don't try to intrude on other peoples' lives, those are the true Christians to me. Those are the Christians who truly have a personal faith and I respect it and admire it. Peace.

exjdub

I have for the moment given up trying to get straight answers from many modern Christians. They are sincere and pleasant people who wish the world to be a better place than it really is. I am happy for them but fail to see how the Bible supports their modern faith.

Very poignant point Gladiator and I agree with you wholeheartedly. I understand the dilemma for Christians as the world today is a complicated place to try and figure out moral issues. How do you square with Jesus' words in a world where violence rules and where your country demands your loyalty over Jesus? Tough place to be in...

exjdub

PSacramento

While faith and a personal relationship (whatever that means when it is a one sided conversation)

That is the issue, it is NOT one sided if it was it wouldn't be a relationship.

I think where StoneWall makes some excellent points is that if you are going to follow Jesus, then follow him, but please don't say you follow him if you do things counter to what he preached.

I, like everyother christian, try our very best to follow all that Christ preached. We ,of course, fail more than we succeed, hence God's gift of Grace.

Jesus, Buddha and Lao Tzu were all peaceful men and had nothing to do with war and governmental politics and they all advocated giving posessions away and leading a simple life. Look at Jesus' life and the lives of the sages before him if you really want to know what his words meant. I find it quite ironic that I admire Jesus' way of life and his wisdom more now than I ever did as a Christian, I just don't think he was anything other than a great and wise sage.

While I appreciate the view you have in comparing Jesus with Buddha and Lao Tzu, in regards that they shared some of the some rich values, let us not forget that the CORE teaching of Jesus was Love and that the core teaching of Buddha was suffering and how to eliminate it and the core teaching of Lao Tzu was the Tao Te ching which at its core is about "nondoing".

Jesus was, his divinity aside, far more than just a sage, but I appreciate and respect your view.

PSacramento

Gladiator,

Your seem to believe with upmost certainty that "modern" Christians do NOT view the bible as Holy because they do NOT view it as JW do, as infalliable, innerant and such, but that is simply not true.

Speaking only for myself, as any Christian can only do, I view the bible as very Holy ( holy doesn't mean imprefect or error free by the way as many holy men were imperfect and error prone) because it speaks Of and has in it, the Words and teachings of God and his only Son Jesus.

As a former JW I can see that "black and white" view of yours in regards to the bible, as a JW you probably believed that it was THE LAST WORD and now as a non'JW you don't view it as having any authority and you can't seem to understand that the bible is to be taken for what IT IS and not for WHAT IT IS NOT.

In the bible we find stories of ancient man and hsi views of God, we find they teachings of God, we find the teachings of Christ, we find the views and teachings of his direct followers and of the man he converted after his ressurection, we find even a Revelation given to one of his followers.

We find opinions, specualtions, prophecies, Laws, opposing view points, possible contridictions, Gad being loved, God being cursed, God loving, God hating, all written by men that loved God and believed that God was THE element of driving force in their lives, we even find those very men ( the scribes) being accused of writing with misleading people with ulterior motives.

The bible must be take as a WHOLE and understood as a WHOLE and it must be reconciled by our faith, by what we know and what we reason.

PSacramento

I understand the dilemma for Christians as the world today is a complicated place to try and figure out moral issues. How do you square with Jesus' words in a world where violence rules and where your country demands your loyalty over Jesus? Tough place to be in...

No touger than it has always been.

THE GLADIATOR

PSacramento

You have referred to my "black or white" view of the bible a number of times. I left the JWs because I despised their Bible based, black or white attitude towards life. It did not suit me because in real life, I am not a black or white person.

The Bible is a "black and white" book. It teaches that you believe in God and his son and gain eternal life OR you don't and you die. It really is that simple. There is no third colour(color) If there is a third alternative please inform me.

My view is that whether you believe in a God or not, you will die anyway. You have chosen the comfort of an illusion.

Alas, I have seen through the trick and cannot be deceived anymore.

PSacramento

The Bible is a "black and white" book. It teaches that You believe in God and his son and gain eternal life OR you don't and you die. It really is that simple. There is no third colour(color) If there is a third alternative please inform me.

We all die, that is a given and nowhere in the bible doe sit say we do NOT die, so what does it mean to have eternal life?

Yes, belief in God and Jesus is crucial, indespensible for Eternal Life, at least according to the bible, that much is indeed "black and white".

If we believe that Jesus is Our Lord and Saviour, that he is The Christ, the only begotten Son of God, that he died and was ressurected, if we believe that God and Jesus will live in us and we in them and the Kingdom of God will be with us, in us.

But we will still die a mortal death, so what is this talk of eternal life?

Of course many believe and do NOT have God and Jesus, we see that by the lack of love in their lives, by their judgment of others, by thier intolerance of the very people that Jesus preached too and loved.

So how black and white is it?

leavingwt

PSac -- Side question. . .Are all Muslims going to Hell or do you believe in a 'Universalist' approach in which most religions lead to the same God?

Deputy Dog

PSac

If they were predestined, why worry? and if Peter thought they were predestined he would have said as much to aswage their fears.

Do you mean like he did here?

1Pe 1:1

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ and sprinkling by his blood: Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?

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