Glad
BurnTheShips and Psacramento spring to mind.
LOL!!! They're nice guys but, I don't put them ahead of scripture.
Why do all intelligent Christians disobey Jesus?
by StoneWall 347 Replies latest watchtower bible
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Deputy Dog
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StoneWall
LOL @ THE GLADIATOR
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tec
LOL @ THE GLADIATOR - Stonewall
How bad is it that I had to go back and read his post to get what was so funny?
I did chuckle on that second read. Very cute.
DD - If I read the first two chapters of Ephesians, then I can understand that some were predestined - chosen before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless- but then later, those who hear and believe in the gospel are also included in Christ. (Ephesians 1: 13-14) Meaning anyone can come to Christ.
The opposite works as well.
But a rejection of Calvanism is not a rejection of the bible. It just means that we look at the bible with different eyes, and focus on different scriptures. (And I do believe Jesus is the Word of God. The bible can be and has been misunderstood and mistranslated by men. I use it, but I try and keep the common-thread teaching of love of God and mankind first and foremost in mind when reading it.)
Tammy
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StoneWall
XJW4EVR also stated in regards to selling all your belongings and becoming a follower of Christ at Matt.19:21:
I really can't believe that you have to be walked through this! This statement was issued to a specific person with a specific issue, if you have any doubts read Matthew 19:16-22. Now, is this particular situation applicable to all Christians now, and in times past? Not necessarily, but Jesus never said that money was the problem, but that making money an idol was the issue.
OK lets analyze this a moment. Would Jesus or should Jesus have two sets of scales? Should he expect this follower
to do something he doesn't expect of his other followers?
Just in case you don't follow what I'm getting at look at Luke 14 and read the whole chapter if you'd like so you
know the setting as well to who Jesus was talking to.
Then notice this verse in that chapter 14:33 "Thus, you may be sure, none of YOU that does not say good-bye to all his belongings can be my disciple." (NWT)
The fact it says none of you denotes that he was/is talking to more than an individual right? So more than one.
The fact it states also none of you, does that mean everyone to you or just those back then?
If it applies to only those back then, then there's two set of standards, two sets of scales so to speak.
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tec
I'm with XJW4EVR on this one.
I think the lesson here is not to put money and possessions ahead of your spiritual wealth. The problem is that when we have these possessions we become so attached to them that we are unwilling/unable to toss them aside as if they mean nothing. Which they do mean nothing to our spirituality, which Jesus was concerned about.
A point I wanted to make about Matt 19:21 is this:
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
You need to actually read the whole thing. To enter life, Jesus told the rich man he had only to obey the commandments. When asked what he still lacked after doing this, Jesus answered the above. When the man went away, unwilling/unable to do as Jesus suggested, then Jesus said that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. (But that with God, all things are possible)
I don't think that there are two sets of standards or two sets of scales.
I think there is one standard. One set of scales. One rule, so to speak: faith in Christ, and love of God and neighbor. I personally think that this faith and love is the narrow path that many people do not find. Different situations with different people might apply different responses (different written rules), but love, faith and compassion should be the underlying point and motivation behind them all.
At the same time and to be fair, great wealth in the face of so much poverty does not seem very Christ-like, or based on love or faith. I feel like we are failing in this respect. (Or at least, we are certainly failing to be perfect) But I don't think supporting your family is a fail. Supporting your family is also motivated by love.
Tammy
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XJW4EVR
And that's the problem with Christianity XJW. You have to put your own interpretation on what Jesus supposedly said, to make your construct work.
You are right. It is my interpretation. My interpretation is based on the historical grammatical method. I also verified that my interpretation lines up with what other scholars have said about any particular passage. In this particular case, please read what John MacArthur (I do not wish to quote every single scholar on this subject) has to say:
It's most interesting to look at verse 39, "Whosoever smites you on the right cheek," why did he use that? Because a right hand will always smack someone on the right cheek, if it is the back of the hand. The right cheek being slapped would mean he was being hit like that, granted that most people are right-handed. In other words, when your dignity is taken away, when you are disdained, when you are dishonored, when you are demeaned, when you are arrogantly humiliated, let them do it again before you ever retaliate. That's what it means.
The problem is that you can't presume anything and your spin is just that...your spin. By the way, if you, or anyone else for that matter, could please point to one scripture that Jesus wrote to inform his followers of his intent, please send it my way.
Well, actually I have not spun anything. I presented my evidence and the conclusion based on that evidence. Contrast what I have done with your statement quoted above. In it you make an assertion with no backing premises.
Whether Jesus wrote anything is not the issue. The issue is whether or not what we do have can be considered reliable. Having read many scholars from both sides of the issue, I believe that the evidence clearly sides with the manuscripts being an accurate account of either direct eyewitnesses or the testimony of eyewitnesses.
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XJW4EVR
OK lets analyze this a moment. Would Jesus or should Jesus have two sets of scales? Should he expect this follower to do something he doesn't expect of his other followers?
The problem, with your view is that the person Jesus directed this statement to did not follow Christ. Instead this man walked away sad because he was very rich.
Just in case you don't follow what I'm getting at look at Luke 14 and read the whole chapter if you'd like so you know the setting as well to who Jesus was talking to. Then notice this verse in that chapter 14:33 "Thus, you may be sure, none of YOU that does not say good-bye to all his belongings can be my disciple." (NWT)
The fact it says none of you denotes that he was/is talking to more than an individual right? So more than one. The fact it states also none of you, does that mean everyone to you or just those back then? If it applies to only those back then, then there's two set of standards, two sets of scales so to speak.
OK, so the real question is whether this is a literal, get rid of your money commandment, or a commandment that deals with the heart. You seem to believe that this is a literal commandment. You think that Christians should be living on the dole. I really don't find that anywhere in Jesus' recorded sayings, but if that's what you want to believe you are certainly entitled to that opinion. In fact I find the opposite, especially in Paul's writings. However, it seems to me, and I hope I am wrong, that if Christians were to do what you want you (and the producers of that silly video) would pull out Paul's words in 2 Thessolonians 3:10 and 1 Timothy 5:8. Not only do we have those scriptures, but we have Philippians, which is an extended thank you letter from Paul for their monetary gift while he was in a Roman prison. Further, there is the generousity of Christians recorded in the book of Acts. It seems to me that based on the whole council of scripture Jesus' teachings regarding money was not so much about the piety of poverty, but the idolotry of money.
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StoneWall
Hi Tammy!
Nice posts. I enjoy your thoughts and viewpoints.
Especially do I like when in your post you say "I think", to show that it's your opinion instead of the way it is.
I can always handle it when someone says something is their viewpoint,thought or opinion on something.
It shows me that they feel a certain way on something but are willing to look at varying ideas without being dogmatic.
Very conducive to an interchange of dialogue.
I noticed in your post number 767 above that you commented on Matt.19:21 and yet remained silent on Luke 14:33.
Do you feel that what is recorded at Luke 14 is another case of "well thats what Jesus said but let me tell you what he really meant?"
Also you may find it beneficial to look at the different translations on Biblegateway.com concerning Luke 14:33 and see
how many word it very similar to what the NWT does in this case.
Also compare whats in Luke 14:33 with what even the apostle Paul stated at Philippians 3:7,8
"Yet what things were gains to me, these I have considered loss on account of the Christ. 8 Why, for that matter, I do indeed also consider all things to be loss on account of the excelling value of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord. On account of him I have taken the loss of all things and I consider them as a lot of refuse, that I may gain Christ "
Notice how even Paul mentioned in this scripture "loss of all things". Not a few things,not some things,not the majority of things
but all things.
And Tammy for the record I totally agree that you have to provide for your family etc.
No where did I indicate otherwise. That's my point and what I feel the author of this video was trying to get across as
regards this point. Intelligent christians will use the rational part of their brain and never give away everything they have
even though Luke says "all belongings" and Paul states in Philippians "all things".
That is where I agree somewhat with what the author of the video was getting at on some picking and choosing what
scriptures they want to follow as long as it's not to their personal detriment.
How many christians do you know that gave up "all belongings, all things" to follow the christ?
Another case in point, how many christians do you know that say their complete trust and faith is in the Lord and yet own
a gun? If their complete trust is in the Lord why have the gun? Can he not protect them from burglars,invaders etc.?
The rational part of their brain kicks in and tells them just in case the Lord don't show up, I better have a back-up plan.
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StoneWall
XJW4EVR,
Just for the record, I really enjoyed and liked that last post of yours.
*Edited to add:
Even though I don't agree with it, what better way could someone show their total faith and trust in Jesus than to
give up all things and totally rely on him to provide them with their bread for each day etc.? That would require some
extreme faith.
I can't even put faith in people I've known most of my life to catch me if they say prove your trust in me by falling
backwards into my arms and I'll catch you.
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XJW4EVR
Just for the record, I really enjoyed and liked that last post of yours.
Thank you. I have enjoyed this thread, it has made me think about what I believe and why I believe what I believe.