You should know him Bane. He banned you the first time. lol
Questions for BANE, SCHOLAR, and All Jehovah's Witnesses!
by UnDisfellowshipped 203 Replies latest jw friends
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garyneal
BANE,
The problem with theology is that it can be a lot of made up theories with a few scriptures thrown in to lend it some authority. I remember my speech teacher warning us that if we attempt to reference the Bible to make a point in our speeches then there is a good chance someone could use the same Bible to make a counterpoint. So who's right?
When I was looking for what the Bible really said, I looked in different translations, interlinears, and asked why this translation was saying this when another translation was saying something different. I checked various interpretations and tried reading it for myself to ensure that the interpretation made sense. And of course, I prayed when I found myself confused on a topic.
In the end I can say that there are some things I agree with the witnesses on but I've noticed that there are a lot of things that seem quite twisted. If you are truly interested in seeking truth (and not just trying to prove yourself right) then you need to be open to all possibilities. For example, while I still hold to the trinity teaching I can see how some scriptures can go either way in regards to proving and disproving it. I can see how the trinity has become a dogmatic teaching by those who insist that all people believe in it in some way. The main thing that counted for me was making sure that the Deity of Christ is biblical and it is.
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PSacramento
How did I do?
The BS is strong with you?
;)
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djeggnog
@Undisfellowshipped:
I read some of the responses posted to this thread, and my apologies to those upon whose toes I might step in this reply, for I sought in this reply to not base my replies on Watchtower publications and the like since I think my answers might be more satisfying to some, if not to you, were they based on what things I've learned over the years from having studied the Bible with Jehovah's Witnesses and as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, since the time may come again when distribution of WTS literature will be banned, in which case only those that have learned will be able to produce literature based on our recall of what things we have really learned and God's holy spirit. These responses are just to the first six of your 35 questions as I do not know that I will be able to take the time to respond to any of the remaining 29.
1:) You talk alot about "Apostates" and you have referred to people on this website as "Apostates." Can you explain WHAT an "Apostate" is, and HOW you are able to judge whether or not someone is an "Apostate"?
An apostate would be someone that has become decidedly alienated from God in that he or she has come to learn what things the Bible teaches. but resists what things he or she has learned by teaching and saying things to others that he or she not only knows to be false, but knows them to be contrary to what the Bible teaches. One does not necessarily need to have submitted to water baptism to behave in an apostate manner.
2:) Also, isn't it true that the Watchtower Publications forbid Jehovah's Witnesses from speaking to "Apostates" or reading their writings? If that is true, then aren't you disobeying the Governing Body by being on this website?
"Forbid"? No. Watchtower publications admonish Jehovah's Witnesses from socializing with apostates or giving to them the time of day once they should realize that their encounter with them (say, in the door-to-door work) is primarily to play "Stump the Jehovah's Witness" with them, and not due to any interest on their part in the Bible.
3:) Can you explain, using only the Bible, why we should believe that today's Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses is the sole channel of communication between God and mankind?
Short answer: There has only been one Christian-based religious organization that has more than adequately fulfilled Bible prophecies regarding the worldwide preaching work and the faithful and discreet slave (Matthew 24:14; 24:45-47) for more than 130 years now and that would be the association of Jehovah's Witnesses through its governing body.
Long answer: You said, "why we should believe...," but I can tell you what I believe based upon the Bible.
Well, The Word of God, Jesus Christ, in fulfillment of what Jehovah had told Moses at Deuteronomy 18:18, 19, came as God's prophet, and instructed that there would be prophets that would speak on his behalf and on behalf of Jesus' father (Matthew 10:40, 41), but that men would binding and loosing those things here on earth that heaven had bound or loosed (Matthew 18:18), and so with the holy spirit having been poured out upon those 120 disciples of Jesus Christ on Pentecost came prophets and prophetesses (Acts 2:17, 18).
Eventually, there emerged a governing body of Christians at Jerusalem to which the congregations of God in the first century AD looked in deciding the circumcision issue that had arisen over uncircumcised Gentiles that were becoming Christians., (Acts 15:6-30) It was eventually revealed to the apostle Paul that God was using the congregation to reveal His wisdom (Ephesians 3:10-12).
The Bible indicates that it would be anointed Christians that would be the ones teaching others and such is the case with respect to Jehovah's Witnesses, which is the only Christian teaching organization in existence today (1 John 2:27), and Jehovah's Witnesses happens to be the only group of Christians upon whom Jesus' prophecy as to what would be occurring during the conclusion of the system of things has found fulfillment. (Matthew 24:3, 9)
Jehovah's Witnesses can all know which organizational body of Christians is being used today by Jehovah as His channel of communication with respect to Bible prophecy, for, among other things, Jesus had foretold that his chosen ones would be gathered together after having prophesied for 42 months, which prophecies were both fulfilled (Matthew 24:31; Revelation 11:3, 4; see Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7 [the power of the WTS was dashed in 1918 in fulfillment of Daniel 12:7] and Revelation 11:2, 3 [Revelation 13:5]).
It had been foretold that Jehovah and His "messenger of the covenant," Jesus, would begin judgment proceedings with the household of God in 1918, and that Jesus' "faithful and discreet slave," w ho will have recognize their master's return in 1914, would not only feeding the domestics, but would recognize when the time came for the ingathering of "the great crowd" (Matthew 25:19-23; 1 Peter 4:17; Malachi 3:1, 2; Matthew 24:45-47; 25:31-33; John 10:16).
4:) Can you explain, using only the Bible, why we should believe that Daniel's prophecy about King Nebuchadnezzar's 7 years of insanity has a secondary meaning, and why we should believe that this secondary meaning is pointing toward Jesus becoming King in 1914? How do you get to the date 1914 C.E. using only the Bible?
Short answer: I can, but you might not be able to follow the explanation I would give because with one question would follow another and another and another since faith is required to understand spiritual matters, and faith comes when one has seriously undertaken a study of the Bible, especially those things that are difficult to comprehend (like why we should believe Daniel’s prophecy regarding to the "seven times" has application to Jesus’ being enthroned as king when the Gentile Times, "the appointed times of the nations" were fulfilled.
Now were you to calculate the number of years between 607 BC, which was the year in which Nebuchadnezzar, the king of Babylon, began to trample upon the kingdom of Judah (where God’s kingdom had been represented in Jerusalem), and 1914 AD, you would find that 2,520 years will have elapsed, and so, to make a longer sentence longer, if each of Nebuchadnezzar’s seven years of insanity were to be explained as having "a secondary meaning," as you put it, then each "year" or "time" would amount to a 360-day lunar year, and "seven times," 2,520 days, making this the end of a very long sentence.
Now if each "day" represented a year – and they do – then between 607 BC, when the "Gentile [seven] times" began, and 1 BC, there would be 606 years; between 1 BC to 1 AD, one year; and between 1 AD and 1914 AD, 1,913 years; and when added together (606+1+1913=2520), the Gentile times were to come to an end in the year 1914, which is the year when the trampling upon Jerusalem, that is, the trampling upon God’s kingdom, which kingdom is now situated in heaven, came to an end. We can conclude from this that it was in the 1914 AD that God gave to the one with the legal right to rule – that is, to Jesus, kingdom rulership, which date, 1914, also marks Messiah’s second coming.
Long answer: You said, "why we should believe...," but what I’m providing here are the reasons that I believe what I do as far as Daniel’s prophecy and 1914 are concerned, and my reasons are wholly upon the Bible.
Well, there were those who had been gathered among God’s people in the years, 1918, 1919, 1922, 1925 and 1926, but not all of them remained steadfast in the truth, and so some of them left, but those that came to the 1,335 days were given many reasons for gladness due to their steadfastness when, by the years 1925 and 1926, it became clear to them what things their God had now revealed to them through His spirit, the "spirit of the truth," as to the significance of the years 1914, 1918, 1919 and 1922, becoming a source of gladness, comfort and guidance to all of God’s people both then and now.
Many of the things that had occurred during these years underwent fulfillment without anyone, but those who were awake and actually looking for confirmation of the fulfillment of Bible prophecy, so that truths that had been hidden from God's people since the time of Daniel came to be revealed for the very first time to God's people during the last days, just as Daniel had prophesied would occur.
At Daniel 12:1, the prophet Daniel wrote about a coming time of distress that would be coming that had not ever occurred since God’s people had become a nation, when those sleeping in death, "in the ground of dust," would awaken from their sleep, and that during this particular time, Michael, the great prince, would stand up "in behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s] people." Similarly, at Matthew 24:21, Jesus predicted such a time would be coming that "[had] not occurred since the world’s beginning, ... nor [would] occur again," referring to a "great tribulation."
But at Daniel 12:4, 9, 10, Daniel was told to make secret the words and [to] seal up the book [of his prophecy], for it would be during "the time of the end" that "the true knowledge" of what these things that he had written in his book of prophecy "[would] become abundant," fir "the ones having insight [would] understand [the meaning of these things], while "no wicked ones at all [would] understand [what these things about which Daniel had written meant].
Notably, at Daniel 12:12, Daniel declares "happy" those that keep in expectation of understanding these things "and who arrives at the [1,335] days." Now Bible prophecies can only be understood when God decides to reveal them, and when He does reveal them, as Amos 3:7 states, the Sovereign Lord Jehovah only reveals the meaning of what things He has kept confidential to His servants.
Two important ingredients in ascertaining the meaning of the things written in the Bible is (1) a measure of God’s spirit, "the spirit of the truth" (John 14:16, 17) for if one doesn’t really know what things the Bible teaches, then one can read and read the Bible without understanding the meaning of what they are, in fact, reading; and (2) assistance from one of God’s servants since God has always communicated through either an angelic messenger or through a human prophet His will. (John 8:27-39; Hebrews 1:1, 2)
Moreover, it is based on God’s spirit that God’s people now know the following things as to which the Bible speaks to be true:
At Luke 21:24, Jesus indicated that Jerusalem, which city represented the typical kingdom of God through its theocratic rulership on earth, would be trodden down, or "trampled on," by the Gentile nations "until the appointed times of the nations [or "Gentiles"] are fulfilled."
This "trampling" began in 607 BC when God permitted the kingly representative of His theocratic kingdom on earth, King Zedekiah, to be dethroned as king of Jerusalem by another king, Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar, thus interrupting theocratic rulership of the Davidic dynasty of kings as was symbolized by Jerusalem.
At Daniel 4:25, God used the prophet Daniel to interpret a dream that God had given to Nebuchadnezzar (about an immerse tree that would be chopped down with its rootstock left in the earth until "seven times" had passed over it), and Daniel revealed to Nebuchadnezzar that he was the tree that would be chopped down until "seven times" had passed over it until he learned that it was only by God's permission that he ruled as king.
A year later and in fulfillment of this "tree" dream, Nebuchadnezzar became insane, so for the next seven (7) years, he lost the ability to rule as king, while retaining his throneship despite the fact that he spent those seven years outdoors eating vegetation as if he were a bull, his body always drenched with the dew of the heavens, his hair growing as long as the feathers of eagles and his nails growing as long as the claws of birds claws until he seven years ended and he regained his sanity, which enabling him to be restored to his kingship
Though his own experience, Nebuchadnezzar was forced to learn that the Most High is ruler in the kingdom of mankind, and that it is God that grants the authority to rule over mankind to anyone He wishes, and that anyone that walks pridefully in the strength of their might and the dignity of their majesty, He is able to humilate.
At Ezekiel 21:27, God used the prophet Ezekiel in advance of this trampling of Jerusalem by having Ezekiel inform King Zedekiah that his crown would be lifted from him, and would become no one else's until the coming of the one having the legal right to it, and that it would only be at a time appointed by God that He would again give theocratic rulership to the one with the legal right to rule from God's throne. In the year 607 BC, when Zedekiah was removed from the throne of Jerusalem as king, God's kingdom was from that time forward no longer represented here on the earth.
When Daniel revealed the timing for the first coming of Jesus Christ as Messiah the Liberator at Daniel 9:24-27, he also revealed the timing for the Messiah's second coming as well at Daniel 4:15-17, which involved the passing of "seven times." Revelation 12:6, 14, indicates that "a time and times and half a time" -- that is to say, 1 + 2 + 1/2, or 3-1/2 times -- represents a period of 1,260 days, meaning that each "time" would be equal to 360 days based on the 12 lunar months of the Jewish calendar, which average 30 days each.
Now twice 3-1/2 times or "seven times" would therefore amount to 2,520 days, and a scriptural application of the "day for a year" rule found at Numbers 14:34 and Ezekiel 4:6 indicate that each of these 2,520 days would be years. Thus, counting from the year 607 BC, the year when Jerusalem was deposed by Nebuchadnezzar, we can see that 607 BC to 1 BC=606 years; 1 BC to 1 AD=1 year; 1 AD to 1914 AD=1,913 years, and when added together (606+1+1913=2520) it is clear that Messiah's second coming would occur in the year 1914 AD.
Jesus would have the legal right to rule as king only when "the appointed [seven] times of the nations" were fulfilled (Luke 21:24), which means that Jesus could not being ruling as king until the "seven times" (Daniel 4:25) had to come to an end, so it was that using the Bible, Jehovah's Witnesses had calculated, and were thus able to determine and publish, as far back as in the late 1800s, that Jesus Christ would begin to rule as king in the invisible heavens in the year 1914.
5:) Can you explain, using only the Bible, why we should believe that there are two separate classes of Christians, one class that will live forever on earth, and the other class that will live forever in heaven?
You said, "why we should believe...," but I can tell you what I believe based upon the Bible. Your mileage may vary, and that’s ok.
Jesus explained to his apostles that they would become kings in that among their duties would be that of "[sitting] on thrones" from where they will be "judging the twelve tribes of Israel," thus signifying that during Judgment Day, that is, in the re-creation during Jesus’ Millennial Reign, they would be appointed to positions of rulership over God’s people. (Matthew 19:28) Jesus also explained that in addition to the "chosen ones" -- those with whom Jesus made provision for them through the new covenant for a place within the kingdom of God, those who would be among those that survive the great tribulation, who Jesus called a "little flock" (Matthew 22:28-30; 24:22; Luke 12:32) -- there would be those that would also survive the great tribulation with them, those who Jesus calls a "great crowd" of his "other sheep," who are not the same as the sheep of the "little flock" fold, but who wear white robes while serving God continually in the earthly realm of God’s spiritual temple (Revelation 7:9, 10, 13, 14).
6:) Can you explain, using only the Bible, why we should believe that Jesus is the same person as Michael the Archangel?
At Daniel 12:1, the prophet Daniel foretold a time of distress on the earth that had never occurred before on the earth, and it was indicated in his prophecy that during this same time period, the great prince, Michael, would be ‘standing up’ for the Jewish people. This angelic prince, Michael, at Daniel 10:13, is also referred to as "one of the foremost princes." In the Bible, the phrase "stand up," or words to this effect, means that the one that is said to "stand up" commences his rulership as king, and so this prince, Michael, the prophet Daniel says, stands up as king on behalf of God’s people during this time of distress.
At Matthew 24:21, Jesus Christ also predicted that such a time of distress would be coming that "[had] not occurred since the world’s beginning, ... nor [would] occur again," referring to this event as a "great tribulation." Now when reading Matthew 24:21, one can easily conclude that this is just a coincidence and nothing more, but keep in mind that Michael is described as one of the "foremost" princes, which is not to diminish other "foremost" angelic princes, for Gabriel is the only other angelic prince mentioned by name in the Bible and certainly he might be described as "foremost"among God's angelic princes. However, we notice upon reading Jude 9 that Michael is described in this verse as "Michael the archangel," where "arch-" carries the meaning of "foremost-angel" or "chief-angel." Note, too, that Michael is not just described in Jude 9 as an "archangel," but as "the archangel," which would mean that of all of the foremost princes, Michael is the only angelic prince that is an archangel. BTW, I should note here that there is an angel described at Exodus 23:20, 21, as having God's name "within him" and that the name "Michael" does mean "Who is Like God?" At Judges 2:1, 2, note that it is Jehovah's angel there speaking to Joshua, Moses' successor, the words: "I proceeded to bring you up out of Egypt.... But you have not listened to my voice."
Although this angel is not Jehovah, notice that he speaks to Joshua as if he were Jehovah, which suggests something great about this particular angel's authority to speak for God, an authority, mind you, that no other angel seems to possess. Just compare how at Luke 1:13-19, the angel Gabriel speaks to Zechariah, John the Baptist's father, not "I am here to 'declare the good news' ... [about your barren wife Elizabeth's becoming mother to a son to you, whose name you are to call John] to you," but "I was sent forth to speak with you and declare the good news ... [about your barren wife Elizabeth's becoming mother to a son to you, whose name you are to call John] to you." Also, compare how at Luke 1:26-33, Gabriel says to Mary, not "I am with you," but "Jehovah is with you," not "you have found favor with me," but "you have found favor with God," not "I will give him the throne of David his father," but "Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father."
Note now that in Daniel's prophecy at Daniel 7:2-8, Daniel sees a succession of world powers and each "beast" in this prophecy represents a world power that "stands up" and reigns as king, one after the other (as explained in more detail in Daniel chapter 11), until we read at Daniel 7:13, 14, where "someone like a son of man" becomes a king after the reign of the "fourth" ten-horned beast, and this "son of man" is given rulership and dignity and kingdom, that the peoples, national groups and languages should all serve even him," and unlike the kingdom that preceded his kingdom, "his rulership is an indefinitely lasting [one], ... and his kingdom one that will not be brought to ruin."
So in Daniel's prophecy both this "son of man" (Daniel 7:13, 14) and this foremost angelic prince Michael (Daniel 12:1) become a king. But note that at Ezekiel 21:27, God had told King Zedekiah that after him, the kingdom would become no one else's until the time appointed by God, at which point God would then give theocratic rulership to the one with the legal right to rule from God's throne. In many places in the Bible, Jesus identifies himself as being this "Son of man," for example, while being the Lord of the sabbath, Jesus describes himself as being "the Son of man" at Matthew 12:8, and at Matthew 16:27, Jesus says that "the Son of man" is destined to come, not with God's angels, but "with his angels."
Keeping this in mind, it should jump right out at the reader of Revelation 12:7-10, that Michael is the Lord Jesus Christ, for we read there that "Michael and his angels" battled with the one called Devil and Satan, so that Satan was hurled down to the earth with his angels, at which time "the authority of God's Son, or Christ, came to pass. Is Michael not the Christ?
But while there are so many things in the Bible that point to Michael as being the alter-ego of the Lord Jesus Christ, one thing that stands out to many is the apostle Paul's description of Jesus as raising those of the first resurrection from the dead "with an archangel's voice." Is Jesus an archangel? Yes, even as Michael is one of the foremost, or chief, princes, and Jesus, the Son of man, and the one to whom rulership, dignity and kingdom is given by God, is the one that descends from heaven "with a commanding call, [and] with an archangel's voice," the only right conclusion that can be drawn is that Jesus is not only an archangel, but is THE archangel, and both he and Michael are, in fact, the same person.
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rnicole76
I have a question: Why call Charles Taze Russell an apostate and if it wasn't for his apostate behind, Jehovah Witnesses wouldn't have exist?
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chrisjoel
To any Jehovahs Witnesses on this thread
A suggestion
Why not make a car group for field service and head over to Barbara Andersons place. Since you have the backing of Jehovah, along with his spirit, you will no doubt be able to persuade such a gem of a human being back into the TRUTH. That way after bringing her back into the organization many on this board will rethink how utterly stupid WE ALL ARE and rededicate ourselves to doing Jehovahs will again. Then your purpose for being on this board will not have been in vain.
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BANE
Thank you Djegg...
As juror number 9 said, I think the point is made.
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isaacaustin
Bane, all you wise words and excellent Biblical arguments have shown me the error of my ways. I will be returning to the witnesses bane. You're so wise bane. I salute you.
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BANE
Well, It seems I am PARTIALLY banned as of this moment. I cannot start new topics. Isn´t THAT interesting? I told ALL of you it would happen. The apostate roams free like a lion and the true Christian like myself are kept down.
Boy my predictions are 100% with this forum! It even says I cannot start topics for 109 years.
All of you complain bitterly about the society and Dfing....Well, I have been DFed from here now! I wonder when my posting will be restricted?
LOL!
So JUST like on IMDB, I have won a major victory here with this half banning. I told you all that I am the best witness! That eventually apostates GIVE UP and become losers. I predicted correctly with my first post here.
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RaraAvis
Well since you will live forever Bane -- 109 years shouldn't be a problem...