For Perry: There was no global flood, so stop looking for Noah's Ark

by BurnTheShips 100 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Perry
    Perry

    BTS,

    No matter how you slice it, Jesus and other bible writers like Peter thought the Flood to be actual history. I make it a practice to believe God first, then if the evidence is overwhelming I'll look for some "spiritualized" explanation.....not the other way around. I am quite comfortable with that approach to life having done the opposite for so long with the WT and then in pop culture.

    The fact is that there are mountains of evidence to question the standard uniformitarianism "millions of years" (UMOY) explantion of things trotted out for mass consumption. Gap Theory may hold some answers for an old earth and young living things....everything may be very young ..... I don't really know. It's all very interesting reading. One thing for sure to me is that there is less evidence of a UMOY paradigmn than biblical models.

    More and more dinosaurs are being found with soft tissue, blood fragments, and unfossilized bone that can now be carbon dated. .... like this Triceritops bone below: This fact alone destroys evolution theory. I know that you've gotten very angry in the past when facts like the ones below are presented. It's nothing personal, no need to get angry about a bunch of bones.

    Dinosaur c14 ages:

    Material Tested
    Triceratops,MT
    Triceratops,MT
    Hadrosaur,MT
    Hadrosaur,MT
    Hadrosaur,MT
    Hadrosaur,MT
    Hadrosaur,MT
    Hadrosaur,MT
    Hadrosaur,AK
    Allosaurus.CO
    Allosaurus,CO
    Acrocanthosaurus,TX
    Acrocanthosaurus,TX
    RadioCarbon age
    30,890 +/-200
    33,830 +2910/-1960
    22,380 +/-800
    22,990 +/-130
    25,670 +/-220
    25,170 +/-230
    23,170 +/-170
    2,560 +/-70
    31,050 +230/-200
    16,220 +/- 220
    31,360 +/-100
    23,760 +/-270
    25,760 +/-280
    Fraction measured
    Collagen, modified Longin Method, AMS
    Organics, pretreated acid, alkali, acid,CL
    Organics, pretreated acid, alkali, acid.CL
    Organics, pretreated acid, alkali, acid,AMS
    Bioapatite, AMS
    Charred bone,AMS
    Collagen Modified longin method.AMS
    Humic acid alkali fraction,AMS
    Purified organics
    Bio-apatite,C
    Bio-apatite (purified with HAc),AMS
    Bio-apatite,AMS
    Bio-apatite,AMS
    Sample from
    Internal bone material
    Outer bone material
    Internal bone material
    Outer bone material
    Internal bone material
    Internal bone material
    Internal bone material
    Internal bone material
    ------------- --
    -----------------
    -----------------
    bone surface scraping
    very large sample size

    Conclusion of Aticle on Carbon 14 dating of things.

    The careful investigations performed by scores of researchers in more than a dozen AMS facilities in several countries over the past twenty years to attempt to identify and eliminate sources of contamination in AMS 14 C analyses have, as a by-product, served to establish beyond any reasonable doubt the existence of intrinsic 14 C in remains of living organisms from all portions of the Phanerozoic record. Such samples, with ‘ages’ from 1-500 Ma as determined by other radioisotope methods applied to their geological context, consistently display 14 C levels that are far above the AMS machine threshold, reliably reproducible, and typically in the range of 0.1-0.5 pmc. But such levels of intrinsic 14 C represent a momentous difficulty for uniformitarianism. A mere 250,000 years corresponds to 43.6 half-lives for 14 C. One gram of modern carbon contains about 6 x 10 10 14 C atoms, and 43.6 half-lives worth of decay reduces that number by a factor of 7 x 10 -14 . Not a single atom of 14 C should remain in a carbon sample of this size after 250,000 years (not to mention one million or 50 million or 250 million years). A glaring (thousand-fold) inconsistency that can no longer be ignored in the scientific world exists between the AMS-determined 14 C levels and the corresponding rock ages provided by 238 U, 87 Rb, and 40 K techniques. We believe the chief source for this inconsistency to be the uniformitarian assumption of time-invariant decay rates. Other research reported by our RATE group also supports this conclusion [7, 23, 42]. Regardless of the source of the inconsistency, the fact that 14 C, with a half-life of only 5730 years, is readily detected throughout the Phanerozoic part of the geological record argues the half billion years of time uniformitarians assign to this portion of earth history is likely incorrect. The relatively narrow range of 14 C/C ratios further suggests the Phanerozoic organisms may all have been contemporaries and that they perished simultaneously in the not so distant past. Finally, we note there are hints that 14 C currently exists in carbon from environments sealed from biospheric interchange since very early in the earth history. We therefore conclude the 14 C evidence provides significant support for a model of earth’s past involving a recent global Flood cataclysm and possibly also for a young age for the earth itself.

    Now:

    I've stated a few of the reasons I reject the UMOY you accept. So, in fairness you really ought to stop ignoring my questions below: Why not just answer my questions regarding your Catholic faith?

    Explain how you can believe that Jesus is God and at the same time God could: a.) deliberately tell a lie about Noah's Flood b.) not know that the story was a lie c.) knew that the story was a lie and deliberately deceived his listeners with the story anyway.

    Now:

    I've stated a few of the reasons I reject the UMOY you accept. So, in fairness you really ought to stop ignoring my questions below: Why not just answer my questions regarding your Catholic faith?

    Explain how you can believe that Jesus is God and at the same time God could: a.) deliberately tell a lie about Noah's Flood b.) not know that the story was a lie c.) knew that the story was a lie and deliberately deceived his listeners with the story anyway.

  • designs
    designs

    That's about on par with Awake articles on science we use to read.............

    Origen in his own way tried to help but the Fundamentalists came back with sword in hand to wrest control of Western Christianity and extend the Dark Ages into the 20th century.

  • Caedes
    Caedes

    Perry,

    You are changing the subject again, wasn't the last time you had a spanking on the subject of dinosaur "soft tissue" enough?

  • Pistoff
    Pistoff

    1. Christian belief (of any size or significance) until the time of Luther was only catholic inspired; Perry, produce your evidence that it is otherwise. What was not catholic, was in opposition to or in reaction to it. Either way, catholic inspired or dominated. We see catholic today as a brand; until luther, christian=catholic (universal)

    2. Perry, I am interested in how you know that Jesus took the flood to be a literal, worldwide event, and not an oral story, or a myth, to him and his fellow jews. Today, the jews see it as folklore, important and valuable, but not literally true.

    Daniel, Job, Jonah; NONE of these are literal to jews, they are morality tales.

    To say they are not historical is not to say they are valueless.

    My main point is that you have absolutely no way of knowing how Jesus viewed them. He might have regarded them as old wives's tales, but if he thought his followers believed them he probably would use them as if he believed them.

    There are many possibilities, and no matter what you say, you may only suspect you know what he thought, you cannot be certain.

  • Room 215
    Room 215

    Perry, how does one reconcile the logistical impossibility of including -- and caring for -- literally all terrestrial animate life forms on the ark?

  • garyneal
    garyneal
    I am not attacking Perry, I am helping him understand that his views on the Flood are wrong.

    To what end? One thing I've noticed here is that there are still a great many people who has this all obsessive need to be right. Perhaps the great flood is a complete myth, or perhaps it was a local phenomenon that the ancients believed happened over their whole world, or perhaps it truly was worldwide. In any case, it is good folklore to be sure.

    Well, I am going to bow out now. Have at it everyone but I doubt anyone will be convinced enough to change their minds.

  • leavingwt
    leavingwt

    garyneal:

    To what end?

    Either something is true, or it is false. If we don't know which, the course of honesty is to admit, "I don't know."

    So, to what end? How about this: A desire to know what is true.

  • PSacramento
    PSacramento

    Jesus never said there was a global flood, nor does the bible say that, "all the world/land" was used as it was typcially used in ancient times:

    Roman ruled all the world

    Alexander was the ruler of all the world.

    That there was a huge local flood is quote possible based on all the stories about it in that AREA, that it was the whole world for THOSE people is just "typical story telling" of those times.

  • Perry
    Perry
    Perry, how does one reconcile the logistical impossibility of including -- and caring for -- literally all terrestrial animate life forms on the ark?

    I don't really know, seems pretty far fetched. But, then again so is Jesus coming back from the dead. Which is more difficult? Anyway here's one thought on it:

      A very real possibility was that the animals Noah put in the Ark were not full grown. It would not take as much food for young samples of each species. According to calculations in The Genesis Flood, by Whitcomb and Morris, 1961, page 69, the Ark could hold the equivalent of 522 standard two-decked railroad stock cars. To carry the no more than 35,000 estimated individual vertebrate animals, the average size being that of a sheep, would require no more than 146 such railroad cars.

    Pistoff,

    The Popes killed tens of millions of congregational christians. Over 70 in a row. That is a fact.

    Literal or parable?

    This sounds like anything BUT a parable to me. Look at the detail compared to the quick general descriptions of characters to make a spiritual point in parables like The Good Samaritan:

    Noah was given instructions about how he was to build a big boat--450 feet long, 75 feet wide, and 45 feet high. (Gen. 6:14-16). I am told that its dimensions were similar to today's oil tankers, making it practically impossible to overturn even in the worst storm at sea.

    God told Noah, "Everything that is on the earth shall die" by a flood. (Gen. 6:17; 7:4). Noah was also told that the Ark would save his family (four married couples) and a male and female pair of every kind of "unclean" animal and 7 each (or 7 pairs) of every "clean" animal. (Gen. 6:18-19). Noah was also instructed to store food in the Ark for his family and for all the animals. (Gen. 6:21).

    • "But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matthew 24:37-39).

    The writer of Hebrews believed it--

    • "By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith." (Hebrews 11:7).

    The Apostle Peter believed it--

    • "Who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water." (I Peter 3:20).
    • "And did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly." (II Peter 2:5).

    Footnote: Many Christians and non-Christians have argued that such "explanations" of the Bible should not be needed. Shouldn't we just accept this "by faith"? Those who make that argument apparently define "faith" differently than I do. The Bible describes faith as "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1). Though I'm now convinced of the reliability of all Scripture, I'm not one who blindly accepts everything I read. Many good people struggle with their faith, especially when they hear or read attacks on the validity of Noah and the Ark (or any of many other Bible stories). God did not leave His existence without clear and convincing proofs that can be found inside and outside the Bible. One cannot use the story of Noah's Ark as the foundation of one's faith. No where does the Bible suggest that God intends for believers to blindly, mindlessly follow without ever questioning. The undeniable proof of His existence and the evidence of His love and power is evident at the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It is this single event that is the center of human history and the pivotal moment in the Bible. Once I became one hundred percent convinced that Jesus Christ was raised from the dead, all other challenges to faith are minor and inconsequential. The only conclusions that can be reached about Jesus Christ is that He was a legend, a liar, a lunatic, or the Lord. Which conclusion have you reached? If you don't yet trust the Holy Bible as a reliable witness, then please read the evidence that comes from historical extra-biblical sources available at this Web site. The evidence is overwhelming, for those willing to take time to study it. If it's true that Jesus Christ died for our sins, then was resurrected from the dead (as I declare), then our acceptance or rejection of Him will have eternal consequences for us all.

    The Flood account is not a parable. It is plainly taught by numerous writers and Jesus himself. You either believe it or you don't. Jesus and other writers are either telling the truth or they are fantastic LIARS. There is no room here.

  • bohm
    bohm

    Here are the rest of Perrys treasure-trove of cut and pastes:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:oFX0nkNgOTkJ:www.westarkchurchofchrist.org/library/noahsark.htm+"young+samples+of+each+species.+According+to+calculations+in+The+Genesis+Flood,+by+Whitcomb+and+Morris"&cd=1&hl=da&ct=clnk&gl=dk

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