For Terry - So That it Will "Make Sense"

Perry

Terry, since you have long proclaimed your inability to comprehend the greatest expression of love in the universe, substitutionary atonement; perhaps this scene from the Last of the Mohicans will help you to understand.

The chief has just handed down a death sentence to the brunette daughter of the captured English general. The English officer in this scene can speak both English and French. Since Daniel Day Lewis can only speak Mohican and English, and the cheif can only speak Huron and French, the captured English officer must translate to the Chief in French. When it comes to translating Daniels' request to die in place of the brunette..... he purposefully mistranslates the request.

Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends - Jesus of Nazareth

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OceYiLo8OTM&feature=related

Terry

Gosh, Perry.

We find ourselves in Eden just after the breezy part of the day. Look! Over there, invisible God is taking His evening stroll through Paradise.

But, heck, something is awry!

Where are those lovely human creatures, Adam and Eve? Golly, how strange they don't seem to be sexlessly frolicking with their nakedness right out in the open where all-knowing God can ascertain their location!

Oops! The man and his wife are hiding from the most powerful and ominiscient being who could not possibly see them over there behind those bushes!

"Why are you hiding?" the clueless all-knowing deity inquires of the cowering humans.

"Cuz we're naked!" they reply artlessly.

"Who TOLD you--you were naked?" The suddenly bushwacked omnipresent overlord roars indignantly.

And so the fun begins!

No human had ever been born by impregnation at this point. No person had died. No wars, disease, suffering or starvation had ever occured.

The entire species of human being consisted of two ashamed naked people who had munched a bite of fruit under the illusion they would become like God "knowing good and bad."

What a devastating crime! KNOWING GOOD AND BAD!!

How can Almighty God allow such a state of affairs to continue without sharp and severe punishment???

.........and so on......

Silly business.

Are we to swallow that God was surprised?

That he was out walking during the breezy part of the day?

That only a "curse" on mankind would serve as justice for the crime of eating off-limits fruit?

Did God improvise all this? Or, was it planned ahead of time?

And what was this______plan_____to set this infinitesimal species back on track?

Humans would dally, gather, pluck and shine for 1500 years until God got around to giving a small tribe of Semites a perfect Law.

Another 500 years and God's "son" would come along and preach to a small portion of that ethnic community and be put to death.

Another 2000+ years and millions of persons who disagree about the details of all this would call themselves "Christian".

And, finally----sooner or later (nobody knows----not even the angels.....) the son who was put to death would return and so forth.

More tests, judgements, dying etc. which no two people can agree upon the details of.....

Is this what you want me to believe so that I can participate in the song that doesn't end......?

(It just goes on and on my friends..

some people started singing it not knowing what it was

and they'll go right on singing it forever just because it is the

song that doesn't end

It just goes on and on my friends.

some people started singing it.............(repeat and never fade)

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Perry

STOP THAT SONG!!!!

So do you agree that the concept of dying on behalf of a friend is an expression of love....even the greatest?

Terry

So do you agree that the concept of dying on behalf of a friend is an expression of love....even the greatest?

All values begin with LIFE. All of them.

Without life nothing can have importance, value, utility or purpose.

The strange idea that people must DIE so that something GOOD will happen for others is ancient.

The primitive mind associated the death of an innocent with appeasing the angry gods.

Child sacrifice was common so that prosperity might come to a tribe or nation.

Isn't it dumbfoundingly strange and coincidental that the same superstitious bloodthirsty idea would occur to BOTH pagans and a Righteous Almighty God???

Go figure!

Having the child of a deity die so that prosperity comes to a worthless body of sinners is goofy and illogical. Calling it "love" devalues esteem of benevolence and life itself.

Jehovah's Witnesses stand by the bedside of their children and refuse transfusions. Is this LOVE? It is certainly convinced arrogance parading as love and obedience! Do these crackpot parents get special credit for "sacrificiing" their children?

You see, Perry, once you buy the premise itself you are a goner to understanding what real value of life actually means!

We only get one life. This one. The real one. The provable one.

Trading it for pie-in-the-sky is gambling arrogance.

Whatever god "gave" was returned to Him---was it not?

Jesus "died" and Jesus lived again.

Where is the actual sacrifice?

Had Jesus suffered, died and remained dead----then and only then would it be a true SACRIFICE and giving up of a value.

If I give a thousand dollars to charity and get it back three days later.......who am I kidding?

Perry

Now Terry. Just hold your anti-christian froth for a moment.

Daniel Day Lewis and the English officer in the movie-clip above weren't thinking about any of the issues you've raised. They are all irrelevant to that movie, are they not?

There was no child sacrifice, blood transfusions, angry gods, or any of the other obfuscations you presented. They both simply loved the brunette woman and wanted to save her EVEN AT THE COST OF THEIR OWN TORTURE AND DEATH. It really is that simple.

The point is that the life exchange was acceptable to the Chief acting as the judge. Millions of people saw that movie, and just accepted as a matter of fact the substitutionary character of the sacrifice without giving it a second thought. I am quite sure that there are no atheist blogs protesting about that sacrifice in The Last of the Mohicans. But, let God try and save someone and the howling immediately begins. Isn't that rather hypocritical?

Why haven't you also condemned DD Lewis and the English officer as "illogical", "primitive", "arrogance prading as love", "superstitous", etc., etc., etc.? And so on and on atheists ramble until the subject changes and then all the sudden ... the same thing is its OK becasue they say it is. Arrogance.

thetrueone

Mysticism has sense, unfortunately its not common.

Terry

Daniel Day Lewis and the English officer in the movie-clip above weren't thinking about any of the issues you've raised. They are all irrelevant to that movie, are they not?

Our fictional heroes were not thinking at all! They were mouthing the words of the script which were crafted from the writer James Fenimore Cooper.

I always fashion my world view from the words of James Fenimore Cooper, doesn't everybody?

The point is that the life exchange was acceptable to the Chief acting as the judge.

The pagan Indian Chief's opinion of what is fair is certainly a model for all post-enlightenment citizens in modern times, I'm sure.

Millions of people saw that movie, and just accepted as a matter of fact the substitutionary character of the sacrifice without giving it a second thought. I am quite sure that there are no atheist blogs protesting about that sacrifice in The Last of the Mohicans.

Millions of people who don't give something a "second thought" are surely the best indicator of what is true!

Atheist blogs have never protested the death of fictional characters as far as I know. Isn't it awful!!??

Why haven't you also condemned DD Lewis and the English officer as "illogical", "primitive", "arrogance prading as love", "superstitous", etc., etc., etc.?

You're right! What's wrong with me?? Have I no delusional sense of fairness which feeds on fiction??

moshe

Perry, the laws of the universe, like Heiszenberg's Uncertainty principle all but eliminate a personal God, which explains why it is left to humans to decide what is right and what is wrong.

Perry

So Terry,

Would you trade your life so that your daughter could live?

Moshe,

The universe's fine tuning and cosmological constants more than proves the existence of a designer. Since this is all his, doesn't he have the right to determine right and wrong? Why should we posit those kinds of imperatives within ourswelves as opposed to him?

moshe

I didn't say God wasn't a designer, I just said HE doesn't talk to us or hear our prayers to win the lottery or find a job or find a spouse, or have a kid or find the true religion, etc- oh, wait a minute, people do say God told them the lucky numbers to play.

For Terry - So That it Will "Make Sense"

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