by flipper 269 Replies latest jw friends
Mr Flipper,
When I TRIED to speak to my mom about that doctrine change, she became extremely angry. She said that I didn't remember it right. And then she said that I was too busy with my friends(said in a very nasty tone) to pay attention. It was a very disagreeable one sided conversation to say the least. Oh yeah, the evil internet played a part in this too.
I think the hostility speaks volumes. And I left it alone after that.
M
DG:
You do not understand the origin of the very teachings you believe in. I am sure you would encourage others to understand the origin of the Trinity in order to assess both the legitimacy of the teaching itself and those that promote the doctrine. However, you have no understanding regarding the prophetic interpretations of your own organization and how these impact your 'present truth'.
Your best gem yet...
I hope you are prepared to repeat these sentiments for the rest of your life. This sums up the entire history of the spirit-directed, channel of God's communication, one true source of spiritual food...the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and its spirit-anointed Governing Body.
eggnogs answer to whether babies of unbelievers will be killed at Armageddon is( in spite of all the smoke in our eyes)
YES
HB
EGGNOG = Reniaa
The sentence rythms, the general shape of the "refutations", even the use of the put down "now, back on topic:" are all the same tired ploys she used.
Of course if she has bought a new computer since she scuttled away, her computers internet address (you know all the 333.253.555. etc, will be different, as it is encoded in each computer chip) will not indicate she is a multiple poster.
I never go to drunken parties as I cant stand the inane blather. I refuse to waste my time on eggnogreniaa
HB
eggnog says :
"For example, it is apparent that after the slave class of the first century AD had all died, one generation of the slave class fed the domestics of the next generation. However, in the 1800s, spiritual food was being dispensed by the "slave" to the "domestics" that fed on the fundamental truths of the Bible through regular group study of the Bible."
This is NOT the current teaching of Jehovahs Witnesses.
Why do you stubbornly persist in the former things?
DO some studying you FAKE.
HB
I'll let others here debate with Eggnog. I'll reply to ones answering on the thread topic of JW relatives explaining the " generation/overlap "
MANDETTE- Wow. I'm sorry you had to experience that with your mom. It sounds like your JW mom is very aggressive as my youngest JW daughter is also. I got a negative response also even though I just quoted to her WHAT was in the WT article ! Didn't even give my take on it ! I think what be making your mom angry is that she's afraid it might not come true- thus the defensive posture. She's put so much time into the JW cult that to find out it's not real- would emotionally wreck her. Try to stay patient with her and avoid the arguments. It's hard- if not downright impossible to win an argument with witnesses because they don't think with their open mind - just cult controlled mind. Just show her some love in ways outside of JW topics
OH DEAR GOD -
Yes I read the whole post. It went on and on, and gave no relevant cogent response to statements or questions raised. eggyreniaa merely REACTED with the kind of WTBTS distractors and equivocation I have got so bored of reading from trolls.
DEAR GOD was more of an exclamation of sheer pity. This talking in circles because the person does not actually know where they are right now. (Tho this would be vehemently denied)
AS for the "question" vs "objection " issue.
If I say "I bought a dozen eggs" or "I heard a big fat LIE:" No sane person would reply with:
"AND WHAT WAS YOUR QUESTION. You need to make clear that it was not a MERE objection"
The obsessive compulsive disorder is so easily cured nowadays. What a pity JWs dont trust Psychiatrists.
HB
Djeggnog
I don't understand what you mean when you say " In addition, Russell preached that the invisible return (or "presence") of Jesus Christ would occur in 1914"
In the book Jehovah's Witnesses in the Divine Purpose, pg23
"JOHN: First of all, Pastor Russell and those associated with him believed Christ's invisible presence in spirit form had already begun in 1874. They realized Christ's main work at the time was to gather those that were his and to free them from the many contradictory teachings as to what the divine will was for them. They believed Christ's purpose in returning was to gather them together, restore the true worship and then, in 1914 at the end of "Gentile Times," take them into God's kingdom,"
On pg. 60 of the same publication quoting from the Nov.1 1914 Watchtower "Should we expect that the Lord would reveal Himself the very moment Gentile Times end? No. The bible declaration is that He shall be revealed in "flaming fire." Just how long after the Gentile times close will be the revealment in "flaming fire" we do not know..
Which suggests to me he believed Christ was invisible present in 1876 and a visible presence some time after 1914.
You also make mention of the change of the Planetary status of Pluto although i agree in essence with your reasoning. The difference to me is that the Scientists are men lead by men. This is supposedly God organization lead by Holy Spirit and the understanding of "this generation" is tied directly to the truth of God's Kingdom as Witnesses we have preached such. Whilst in fact it was not truth.
HAMSTERBAIT- I agree. It is a pity JW's don't believe in going to psychiatrists . Many would receive needed help. Especially if the counselor understands mind control.
THE FINGER- I feel C.T. Russell was just as confused as the modern day GB is confused in the WT society. Thing is - ALL religions or cults who have predicted the " end " have all been wrong. It's never happened. So in that sense they all have a common ground and are on the same page
@The Finger:
I don't understand what you mean when you say "In addition, Russell preached that the invisible return (or "presence") of Jesus Christ would occur in 1914".... Which suggests to me he believed Christ was invisible present in 1876 and a visible presence some time after 1914.
Do you know how folks here have been quoting things from oldest publications, like from the Watchtower, in order to make the point that the WTS has published various explanations of what Jesus meant by the words, "this generation," at Matthew 24:34? Well, just as Jehovah's Witnesses used to understand Jesus' words at Matthew 24:34 to have a certain meaning, likewise Pastor Russell was formerly a Congregationalist, and used to subscribe to beliefs held by other religionists of his day, such as beliefs held in common by Jonas Wendell (Second Adventist), Nelson H. Barbour (Millerites Adventists), George Stetson (Advent Christians), Henry Grew (Orthodox) and George Storrs (Methodists).
Jehovah's spirit was in operation upon all of these men at that time, as these men were making a thorough examination of the Scriptures and making clear to those that listened to them the meaning of many of the things recorded in the Bible. The prevailing belief among Adventists that Jesus' presence had begun in 1874 was believed and being taught in those days until Russell, who had survived the deaths of all but Barbour, came to realize that he, Barbour and the Adventists were in error.
Although Barbour decided in 1883 to abandon his teaching in an invisible presence and began to teach the Adventists' view of a visible presence in 1896, Russell made an adjustment in his viewpoint, believing 1914 to be the year of Jesus' invisible presence, so your quoting older publications that say that Russell believed otherwise only suggests that the man's beliefs were not static, but were progressive.
At Luke 12:57, Jesus asked the question, "Why do you not judge also for yourselves what is righteous?" Tell me that you do not know that we are living in the last days, and at the same time that you do not think it to be your obligation to let folks know that the meaning of the things that they have seen taking place since 1914 signify that the end of this system of things is near. There are people that you even know, people that live in your own community, that know not a thing about the storm that is coming, the great tempest is being roused up. "And those slain by Jehovah," the prophet Jeremiah wrote, will certainly come to be in that day from one end of the earth clear to the other end of the earth. They will not be bewailed, neither will they be gathered up or be buried. As manure on the surface of the ground they will become." (Jeremiah 25:32, 33)
Would it be righteous on your part to have the ability to "see a cloud rising in western parts," and warn others that "a storm is coming," and the storm comes, and yet you remain silent about the storm, or for you to be able to discern upon your seeing a south blowing, to declare that "there will be a heat wave," and a heat waves follows, and yet you remain silent about the heat wave, too?
You have come to learn from the holy spirit, @The Finger, about the composite sign given us by the Lord Jesus Christ, which sign has been in evidence until now since 1914, so that you are not among those that are totally ignorant of what is going on at this particular time, and you are not among those that will be beating themselves in lamentation after they will have bore witness to the sign of the Son of man appearing in the skies above. The holy spirit has guided you into the truth as to the things that are coming so that you will not be "faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth," because, by means of God's spirit, you already know what's coming. (Matthew 24:30; Luke 21:26) For a certainty you know that "this generation will by no means pass away until all things occur," no matter how long it turns out to be! (Luke 21:32)
Jesus wrote: "Hypocrites, you know how to examine the outward appearance of earth and sky, but how is it you do not know how to examine this particular time?" Would it not also be hypocritical on your part to know what the holy spirit has said and yet you keep what things you know to yourself. Indeed, "why do you not judge also for yourselves what is righteous? (Luke 12:56, 57)
Often the enemies of Jehovah's Witnesses are accused by of breaking up their families, but Jesus came to divide families on the basis of the good news. At Luke 12:51-53, Jesus said from that point forward that "there will be five in one house divided, three against two and two against three, ... father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against her mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." (Luke 12:51-53) Just as was the case during the first century AD, separateness from the world and its view of families worshipping in their own way or not worshipping at all is a distinctive mark of Jehovah's Witnesses that seek to worship God "with spirit and truth" even if it meant separateness from members of our own families. (John 4:24)
The fact that Christians are to separate themselves from "the spirit of the world" is not given the emphasis that it really should be given what with so many former Jehovah's Witnesses hating us for displacing the peace of the world that people had with their families with "the spirit which is from God," namely, "the peace of God that excels all thought." (1 Corinthians 2:12; John 14:27; 1Corinthians 7:15; Philippians 4:7)
Christians honor Christ by not showing disrespect to others; we don't spar with others whose hatreds are based on racial, ethnic, national and even personal differences. We are not obsessed with materialism, with having the latest tv, video game, automobile or iPod. We have no interest in seeing the latest depiction of wanton sex and violence acted out on the big screen or on video. We don't embrace the sentiments of what the pundits say about politicians to disparage or impugn their reputations, for, like Jesus, Christians take a neutral position with respect to politics, consistent with our apolitical stand for God's kingdom. We recognize that "friendship with the world is enmity with God" and not one of us wish to become "an enemy of God." (James 4:4)
Christians all recognize that because no one is imperfect that we are all sinners and that we all need to avail ourselves of the gift of undeserved kindness that Jehovah has extended toward us through our faith in the ransom provision of Jesus Christ that is saving us. (Ephesians 2:8; 5:3-5)
As Peter observed he had left all things in order to follow Jesus, so likewise all Christians must leave all of their own things if we are going to follow Jesus, too, for Jesus said, "There is no one who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God who will not in any way get many times more in this period of time, and in the coming system of things everlasting life." (Luke 18:28-30)
So, seriously, @The Finger, do you think it to be righteous on your part to be dragging this man, Russell, that has been dead for almost 95 years now, who despite all of his flaws and imperfections, was a believer in God's word, a man that did his best to follow the direction that the holy spirit led him and others, as he endeavored to listen to the what the spirit was saying, at a time when God's organization was few in number, even getting a few things wrong along the way?
Russell didn't know that there would be a 2010 in this system of things, but Jesus said that no one would know the day and hour when the end would come. But we do know that the season is now and that Jesus said that "this generation" would not pass away until all of the things, from the appearance of the composite sign in 1914 through the "great tribulation," when the politicians of this world turn on all false religion, will have occurred. (Matthew 24:21, 34)
You also make mention of the change of the Planetary status of Pluto although i agree in essence with your reasoning. The difference to me is that the Scientists are men lead by men.
Ok.
This is supposedly God organization [led] by Holy Spirit and the understanding of "this generation" is tied directly to the truth of God's Kingdom as Witnesses we have preached such. Whilst in fact it was not truth.
With this word "supposedly," it seems apparent that you either doubt or just do not believe that God's organization -- that is to say, Jehovah's Witnesses -- are led by God's holy spirit, and that's ok, for you are entitled to your opinion, but let me ask you this: What exactly do you think it means for anyone to be led by holy spirit? I'm not sure that you know what this means, so I'm asking you now what you understand this expression to mean.
@djeggnog
