Have your JW Relatives Explained about Generation/Overlap Change to You ?

by flipper 269 Replies latest jw friends

  • Essan
    Essan

    Dj, To give you an idea of why some simply responded to your posts in exasperation with the words "OH DEAR GOD!" and indicated they could not get past the first paragraph of your epistles, please read again and reflect on your own response to a straight a fairly simple question. They asked, can someone provide Scriptures to justify the concept of "major" and "minor" fulfillments of prophesy. You said:

    "I assume you know that the words "minor" and "major" fulfillment of Bible prophecies are pretty much only put out there by Jehovah's Witnesses, so your interest in comprehending the "concept" of them, especially in referring to "parallel dispensations," would suggest an appreciation for the concept. Except as to what 1 Corinthians 4:1 says about the role of a steward of God --

    Let a man so appraise us as being subordinates of Christ and stewards of sacred secrets of God.

    -- your question here is vague, for what connection do you believe there to be between the fulfillment of Bible prophecies and what you here refer to as "parallel dispensations"? I detect disbelief in you as to whether there can be both a minor fulfillment as well as a major fulfillment of a Bible prophecy, so I'd appreciate a bit of clarification as to what you are asking, lest this question of yours prove to be more of an objection than a genuine question."

    I have to echo the sentiments of the earlier poster:

    OH DEAR GOD!

    Can't you ever just answer a straight question? You have mastered the art of talking endlessly and yet saying nothing relevant or that makes any sense. Is your aim to talk so much that you hope that we'll eventually forget the question, or wished we'd never asked it, or that we'll lose the will to live? Have you been taking lessons from this guy? Listening to him (from the 2 min 55 sec mark especially) is exactly like reading your posts.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5QhuabuHCgg&feature=related

  • caliber
    caliber

    Salvation p311

    At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929 there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth Sarim. The Hebrew words Beth Sarim mean 'House of the Princes'; and the purpose of acquiring that property and building the house was that there are those on earth today who fully believe in God and Christ Jesus and in His Kingdom, and who believe that the faithful men of old will soon be resurrected by the Lord, be back on earth, and take charge of the visible affairs of earth. The title to Beth Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth .. It stands there as a testimony to Jehovah's name; and when the princes do return, and some of them occupy the property, such will be a confirmation of the faith and hope that induced the building of Beth Sarim.

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @flipper:

    Whether you resent my comments about the WT society unjustly taking advantage in encouraging people to donate wills, inheritances, estates, cars, jewelry, and possessions - I really don't care. I speak the truth.

    I said you do not "speak the truth" here at all, that is from where I sit! I reacted to what you actually wrote:

    Jehovah's Witnesses and the WT society lie about it because they want to dupe, deceive and take advantage of JW members to keep them hooked into the game by contributing $$$$ to the WT society. They coerce older members to donate estates, wills, inheritances, cars, jewlery and possessions so as to contribute to a multimillion $$$$ yearly WT society income.

    For the record, I am one of those Jehovah's Witnesses that you have here accused of running some confidence game against unsuspecting folks in order to enrich themselves. Since this is not true from my perspective, this makes you a liar.

    Once the WT society HAS attained those possessions legally who do YOU think will benefit from them ? The leaders of the organization. Certainly not the poor rank and file publishers . Do you think the WT society will share the wealth they [receive] and write checks dispersing the wealth among JW members ? If you say " yes " then you are really duped.

    I don't expect the WTS to issue any checks to anyone not deserving. I trust the WTS to oversee the operations that involve the entire association of Jehovah's Witnesses. Evidently you don't trust the WTS to do this, but you don't have to trust the WTS, do you? You're not one of Jehovah's Witnesses and you are no defender of Jehovah's Witnesses either.

    I am not a liar. If you don't believe how much wealth the WT society possesses - why don't you google any WT society financial information on the internet and inform yourself ? Instead of getting all defensive about what you are not aware of. You say you're successful, you claim to be bright . Prove it to yourself.

    I don't have any need to Google anything. I get to read the WTS financial reports every year, and you are what you are. No doubt. I will defend against such false allegations if I choose to do so, and you may continue to go on defaming the WTS and Jehovah's Witnesses if that is what you choose to do, and I'm pretty sure that you are not going to allow anything that I might say to you on this issue to prevent you from lying.

    I don't care if you are intelligent or not. It's a non-issue to me. What is a issue is knowing the REAL truth about what the WT society tries to do in mind controlling and manipulating it's members.

    Usually it's the ignorant that care nothing about intelligence, loving to wallow in their ignorance. I'm fine with your making your own choices.

    I do agree with your point " I don't believe that ignorance will save anyone. " That's why I try to enlighten people to the [deceptions] of the WT society.

    To what purpose? Who are the beneficiaries of your "gospel"? What enlightening do you provide that will result in eternal life for anyone willing to listen to your haranguing Jehovah's Witnesses and defaming the WTS? I'd like to read you response to these few questions if you have time to do so.

    @The Finger:

    Do you think the Watchtower is scrupulously honest?

    Who is "the Watchtower"? Do you mean do I think Jehovah's Witnesses are scrupulously honest folks? If so, yes, I do.

    @Essan:

    To give you an idea of why some simply responded to you posts with the words "OH DEAR GOD"....

    Go back and check the order in which the messages from @hamsterbait and @MsDucky were posted, ok? I already know what it was I posted.

    Can't you ever just answer a straight question?

    Yes, I can (and that is what I am now doing with respect to this question from you).

    @caliber:

    Salvation p311

    At San Diego, California, there is a small piece of land, on which, in the year 1929 there was built a house, which is called and known as Beth Sarim.... The title to Beth Sarim is vested in the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society in trust, to be used by the president of the Society and his assistants for the present, and thereafter to be forever at the disposal of the aforementioned princes on the earth .

    Are you suggesting something sinister about Beth-Sarim where J.F. Rutherford came to live for some 13 years, where he lived during the winters from 1929 until his death on January 8, 1942, due to his health after having lost one of his lungs following his imprisonment back in 1919 where he developed a severe case of pneumonia. The man had been back in forth between Brooklyn, New York, and San Diego, California, under doctor's care until someone made a direct contribution for the purpose of constructing a house in San Diego for his use. Brother Rutherford’s use. It wasn't as if Beth-Sarim was built at WTS expense, and after Rutherford's death, the property was conveyed to the WTS, who eventually sold the property as made clear in the Watchtower, dated December 15, 1947.

    Specifically, as to the zany idea that Jehovah's Witnesses had about the possibility of using Beth-Sarim to house Abraham, Joseph and David -- whose resurrection Jehovah's Witnesses had at that time anticipated to occur from Armageddon -- this notion as to these men being resurrected before the end of this system of things and serving as "princes in all the earth" (in fulfillment of Psalm 45:16) was abandoned as the Watchtower, dated November 1, 1950, states, at which time an adjustment was made that indicated that these pre-Christian men of faith would be resurrected after Armageddon. One must always keep in mind that Jehovah's Witnesses are neither perfect nor infallible, nor are any of the things printed by the WTS as aids to Bible study inspired by God.

    Look: Why don't you take a moment, think about what you want to say, and then just ask me a proper question, instead of just quoting something you copied from a now-defunct 1939 book, Salvation? Do you think you could do this?

    @djeggnog

  • The Finger
    The Finger

    Djeggnog,

    Lol, you know what I mean

  • Simon Morley
    Simon Morley

    DJEGGNOG: "I've love to read your answer to this question" - I was, for 25 years, served as an elder, PO, etc, etc. You?

  • caliber
    caliber

    My simply quoting a WT publication was in response to this question posed by you .. "I don't know when the WTS has EVER proffered a prophetic prediction of any sort, but assuming that you now of one or more of such, I'd like to read it'

    When will you have enough of "defuncting" of WT generation dates ? I have a chart that show 6 understandings of the term generation over the course of 100 years !! Three new understandings since the 1970's when I become involved.

    Changes are often made "after the fact " when the current understanding become next to impossible to make sense.. can't you smell the dead rat ??

    Truth can be stated very briefly... the more in doubt you are the more long winded explanations are require to shore up your argument.

    The bible says "Jesus Christ the same today , yesterday and forever" ... not exactly the same is true for the WT it appears to me !!

    the WT says it is like a sail boat "tackling in the wind.. back and forht to arrive at the truth

    It doesn't go well with this Bible verse ... Eph. 4;14 ..

    4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @Simon Morley wrote:

    One thing is true, the WTBS in their disobedience of God and Jesus [fulfill] the absolute truth at Deuteronomy 13:1-3, paraphrased, "if it does not come true, don't listen to them"

    @djeggnog wrote:

    Well, I do believe I get your meaning, and so I'm assuming here that you are aware of one or more prophetic predictions that has been published by the WTS. That being the case, I don't know when the WTS has ever proffered a prophetic prediction of any sort, but assuming that you now of one or more of such, I'd like to read it. Please post at least one of these prophetic predictions to which you refer as well as the source of the said prediction. Otherwise, I'm going to consider you to be someone for whom repeating a false rumor poses no real problem.

    @Simon Morley wrote:

    "I've love to read your answer to this question" - I was, for 25 years, served as an elder, PO, etc, etc. You?

    Let's say that I have washed and continue to wash the feet of everyone with whom I come into contact. I don't care about what "status" you may have had or the length of time you may have served when you were an elder. I assume that all of that is past, but assuming that you were, in fact, an elder, then I would expect you to be able to articulate "at least one of these prophetic predictions to which you [referred] as well as the source of the said prediction." I thought I'd quote myself here in the event you didn't get me the very first time you read these words.

    I'm not looking for friends. I'm here to permit you (and others) to bounce any and every idea that has been conceived in your heart on which the decision to take the stand that you have taken against Jehovah and against His anointed One rests.

    @caliber:

    My simply quoting a WT publication was in response to this question posed by you .. "I don't know when the WTS has EVER proffered a prophetic prediction of any sort, but assuming that you now of one or more of such, I'd like to read it'

    I'm sorry, but I didn't see a prophetic prediction in what you posted. Do you happen to have one of those?

    When will you have enough of "defuncting" of WT generation dates ? I have a chart that show 6 understandings of the term generation over the course of 100 years !! Three new understandings since the 1970's when I become involved.

    So what? Is there something wrong with abandoning a wrong viewpoint? Tell me this: Did you happen to believe (once upon a time, that is) that "Once Saved Always Saved"? Or, that Jesus Christ was Almighty God? Or that the account of Adam and Eve was just an allegory? Or, that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus proved the existence of hellfire of torment? Or, that formerly believed that Jesus experienced a bodily resurrection? Did you abandon any of these unscriptural viewpoints I just mentioned here?

    Changes are often made "after the fact " when the current understanding become next to impossible to make sense.. can't you smell the dead rat ??

    No, I don't smell anything.

    Truth can be stated very briefly... the more in doubt you are the more long winded explanations are require to shore up your argument.

    Typically, I will explain the truth both plainly and simply, but when asked questions that require a bit more than 'plain and simple,' I usually find a way to respond to those questions, too, but how I respond is based upon (a) the questions I am asked and (b) the perception I have of what my audience already knows. As someone that is adequately qualified to teach others, I never assume anything about what knowledge someone might already possess.

    @djeggnog

  • caliber
    caliber

    The bible says "Jesus Christ the same today , yesterday and forever" ... not exactly the same is true for the WT it appears to me !!

    the WT says it is like a sail boat "tackling in the wind.. back and forth " to arrive at the truth

    It doesn't go well with this Bible verse ... Eph. 4;14 ..

    4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

    I notice how you nicely avoided and ducked these concluding thoughts I had .. you have very slack moves , "avoid and distract" ,what you don't care to answer !! These were the strongest part of my argument .....safe move man !! he he he

    " So what? Is there something wrong with abandoning a wrong viewpoint? Tell me this: Did you happen to believe (once upon a time, that is) that "Once Saved Always Saved"? Or, that Jesus Christ was Almighty God? Or that the account of Adam and Eve was just an allegory? Or, that the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus proved the existence of hellfire of torment? Or, that formerly believed that Jesus experienced a bodily resurrection? Did you abandon any of these unscriptural viewpoints I just mentioned here?"... I was raise a JW didn't have to abandon any of the above teachings

    More Truth adds to truth it doesn't go in circles

  • djeggnog
    djeggnog

    @caliber:

    The bible says "Jesus Christ the same today , yesterday and forever" ... not exactly the same is true for the WT it appears to me !!

    And your point is (assuming that you have one)?

    the WT says it is like a sail boat "tackling in the wind.. back and forth " to arrive at the truth

    It doesn't go well with this Bible verse ... Eph. [4:14] ..

    Should I expect a question from you at some point or not?

    I notice how you nicely avoided and ducked these concluding thoughts I had .. you have very slack moves , "avoid and distract" ,what you don't care to answer !! These were the strongest part of my argument .....safe move man !! he he he

    What's so funny? The fact that you clearly have nothing to say to me? That you are here saying absolutely nothing in response to my previous question? You wrote something mindlessly about Beth-Sarim, but you didn't ask me a question. If you don't have a question, that's ok.

    I was [raised] a JW [so I] didn't have to abandon any of the above teachings

    But you are no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses, isn't this true? It makes no difference that you might have been raised in a Christian household. I still say, So what? If you are telling me here that you believe "Once Saved Always Saved," then say that. If you are telling me here that you believe Jesus Christ to be Almighty God. If you are telling me here that you believe the account of Adam and Eve is just an allegory, then say that. If you are telling me here that you believe the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus proves the existence of hellfire of torment, then say that. If you are telling me here that you believe that Jesus experienced a bodily resurrection, then say that.

    However, if you are telling me here that you do not believe any of these things I mention here to be true, then what possible difference would it make to you what Jehovah's Witnesses believe as to the meaning "this generation" at Matthew 24:34? So what if there should be 10 different understandings at some point? 15, 20 different understandings? Jehovah's Witnesses will teach what things we believe at that time, and will not have a plurality of beliefs on the meaning of Matthew 24:34 all at the same time. Why would this be any of your concern if you aren't one of Jehovah's Witnesses? I don't need you or anyone to complain on my behalf about the number of clarifications that have been made over the years. Unlike you, I continue to be one of Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm totally fine with making the adjustments in my understanding of Matthew 24:34.

    More Truth adds to truth it doesn't go in circles

    What do you know about truth? Did you know that Jesus is the truth personified? Maybe you do, maybe you don't, but who do you think yourself to be? Not one of Jehovah's Witnesses is concerned about what you believe or do not believe since you are just as entitled as are we to believe whatever you wish to believe. I still didn't see a prophetic prediction in anything that you posted. Do you happen to have such a prediction that Jehovah's Witnesses have ever made?

    @djeggnog

  • bohm
    bohm

    If you guys want to see something funny, ask djeggnog if all babies whos parents are not jehovahs witnesses will die at armageddon. He/She has previously stated repeatly that Jesus will kill them all with a sword. (there you have it fokes! jesus dont take shit from no infant whos parents dont get 10 hours in each month!) I will add to her defence he/she did not answer when i asked if jesus would torture the babies to; perhaps that much is unknown?

    We are dealing with a deranged person who cannot be convinced of anything, not even when her view is contradicted by the society itself. She will just run in circles logically and write wall after wall of text. Personally i think he/she need professional help; or at least is desperate for attention.

    Now back on topic :-)

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