Is it unacceptable to stand up for Jehovah's Witnesses on a site called Jehovah's-Witness.net? (page 12)

cyberjesus

TD:

Expecting for a regular JW to present a Quality Argument in a respectful and goal oriented debate is, well... I think is easier for you to believe that Armageddon is coming within this generation :-)

Dont forget that also they dont have a good education, Majority didnt even go to college. So that makes it even harder. I think Friend was a unique case. The JW religion is a religion that keep their members closed minded and ignorant and prevents them from getting out of that vicious circle.

Is easier for my dog to understand me than for a JW, and I dont even have a dog. :-)

SweetBabyCheezits

You guys offer some really good perspectives/insights on dealing with... or better yet, understanding some posters. I wish I'd read this thread before my last post to Bane. Now I feel like a d-bag. That's not the kind of person I want to be but it comes out sometime. Very good posts in this thread, though.

I'm the kind of person who tends to reflect the temperament of the other party in the conversation, whether in real life or online. If that person shows a certain amount of humility, I try to be careful to show respect and avoid being offensive, even though I may disagree with their view. But if their tone is arrogant and dogmatic, the desire to revile consumes me. I want to personally knock them off their high horse. Maybe that's my own immaturity bleeding through. And maybe that's how the other person feels about me.

But lately when I read Bane's comments, I see the face of my brother-in-law - a guy who is judgmental, hypocritical, immature, and arrogant. While I recognize that I probably acted the same way as a devout JW (and obviously still do), I would never have dropped in on an "apostate" forum and spewed messages of contempt like he does.

Also, when my brother-in-law (or any other JW) thinks he can quickly solve a puzzle (607 vs 587/6) in a couple hours that I studied/researched off and on for a few years, it really gets under my skin. He was so quick to assume I wanted a way out and, even if it meant sacrificing my family, would be willing to drop the Org over the most minor issue. So I take that personally and my frustration comes out, ready to fight.

Plus it ticks me off that he doesn't even understand the Gregorian calendar - much less Bible chronology - and yet he tells my wife after 2 minutes on Google (regarding 607 doctrine), "Oh, it's just a misunderstanding between BCE and CE, that's all." vent/off. Sorry, guys. Again, nice thread, Gladiator.

cyberjesus

SBC, yes he sounds like my sister and my every faithful JW relative even me. It is painful. But once you understand them, it is actually funny :-)

TD

Let me ask you, do you think that posters like "Friend" was different because HE was different?

He was different. People on JW forums learned much from him, but I doubt very much if he learned anything new from them.

The point here is if someone from 'Bethel' could come here and be polite, honest and forthright with "Apostates" and "Opposers" then certainly a rank and file JW could.

THE GLADIATOR

SweetBabyCheezits

You guys offer some really good perspectives/insights on dealing with... or better yet, understanding some posters

cyberjesus

That why they are JWs, they cant reason or hear, they believe they are right so no matter what you tell them they wont admit it. IF you try to reason with a JW you WILL waste your time. They can only come to their conclusions on their own. And in no other way. We cant post a reply for them to understand but for other who are lurking to see from a third person point of view the discussion and those are the ones who have the possibility to wake up and reason and understand.

I agree that even if the JWs we are debating with become insulting and refuse to see our point of view, what we say may help lurking JWs who have doubts. We have to remember that the JWs we label as Trolls are here because they are hurting. They too are damaged people who feel a need to battle to maintain their balance; both in their beliefs and at an emotional level.

They want to hurt us because they realize that we are a credible threat to their belief system. We attack something they value so they hit back. They seek to find our weaknesses and drive us away. We need to see this as a good result.

The alternative is that we chase away all JWs that do not sympathize with our views; or who are aggressive and unbending in their argument. Then we could just talk amongst ourselves and congratulate each other for being smart enough to leave the Tower. That would spoil all the fun!

Black Sheep

As nasty as JW supporters may get, they are still good value in forums .

They see their posts as positive for the WTBTS and we need to encourage that delusion for our advantage.

I have seen many posts from newly recruited victims. It is always very sad, but there is little we can do about it unless we can capture that tiny bit of doubt that they still have. I encourage everyone here to bone up on the skills that we need to help them

ballistic

For those who think that "troll" is something perculiar to this site, it might be worth looking up the definition of internet troll.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Then it will become clear that the real trolls we see here over the years (remember Fred Hall?) are very different to the JW apologists we see all the time and are being discussed here.

I think it is useful to make a clear seperation of the two.

THE GLADIATOR

As nasty as JW supporters may get, they are still good value in forums .

They see their posts as positive for the WTBTS and we need to encourage that delusion for our advantage.

Black Sheep has stated above the Modus operandi that I lean towards. (I googled that just to look clever)

I understand that those of us who have recently left are not yet emotionally ready to deal with angry JWs or what have been, perhaps inaccurately, labeled trolls. Those of us who have been out for a long time can develop effective ways of dealing with angry, frustrated JWs that want to rage at us ‘apostates.’

Arguing people often have one thing in common. They are usually totally unable to admit they are wrong no matter how well facts are laid before them. Anyone who is married knows this!

Sometimes long after the row is over, they will quietly admit to themselves that they were wrong. They will seldom do this in the heat of the argument, for fear of losing face.

In verbal rows people will genuinely not register or remember what is said if it is unpalatable to them. Here what we say is recorded. People will often look back at exactly what was said and get a different take on the whole issue. This cuts both ways!

SweetBabyCheezits

"Arguing people often have one thing in common. They are usually totally unable to admit they are wrong no matter how well facts are laid before them."

You're right, Gladiator. And to make things more difficult, pure faith seems to be, by nature, at odds with critical reasoning. A person who builds unfaltering faith cannot let go of their attachment to being right. Otherwise, it ceases to be faith, right?

Someone recently posted some HeinLein quotes... he put it much better:

“The great trouble with religion — any religion — is that a religionist, having accepted certain propositions by faith, cannot thereafter judge those propositions by evidence. One may bask at the warm fire of faith or choose to live in the bleak uncertainty of reason — but one cannot have both.” –Robert Heinlein

Holey_Cheeses*King_of_the juice.

Without having read any of the preceding posts, my immediate thought when reading the title was - "Why would anyone openly admit to stand up for and defend anything about jws, and thus identifying oneself as a complete and utter fool irrespective of when or where it may occur".

Cheeses. Sometimes confused, but seldom wrong.

Is it unacceptable to stand up for Jehovah's Witnesses on a site called Jehovah's-Witness.net?

Share this