TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else (page 35)

UnDisfellowshipped

10West, thank you for your post and welcome!

Let me ask you a question:

If you believe that The Father is One God and Jesus is a 2nd lower god (John 1:1), then how are you not violating the 1st Commandment?

I was thinking that I would be getting a reply from you that pertained more to my post in connection with the topic you started here (regarding the holy spirit) than counsel based on quotes from WTS publications, which I view as offensive coming from someone that in many ways is analogous to my accepting counsel from Mike Tyson as to how I should treat my wife. I consider you and those like you to be both dishonest and untrustworthy in that would devour WTS literature in order to spin our literature in order to bludgeon active Jehovah Witnesses, whose worship is largely based upon what our literature says than on what things the Bible teaches with them to guilt trip in some way, as Satan did in quoting the Bible in which he had no faith whatsoever in a failed attempt to persuade Jesus to commit attempted suicide. (Matthew 4:5-7)

I'd rather you use the Bible to discuss such things as "abusive speech, ridicule, contempt, and hateful wrath" than for you to associate yourself with statements made in select articles you find in our literature in order to maybe establish a level playing field between us that doesn't exist and will never exist as long as you are unbelieving former Witness. For example, if you posted your message to me in defense of @yknot after I had asked her if she really knew the truth and suggested that she "should consider requesting the local elders to assign someone to study the Bible with [her]," maybe she will be appreciative of your chivalry, but what I said to her was none of your business.

I'm sure you want to serve your god well even as do I want to serve my God well, and while I believe it to be wholly inappropriate for you to be twisting the words in our literature and using them for your purposes, I understand that you have as much of a right to worship your god, Satan -- the Trinity god -- as I do to worship my God, Jehovah. In the future though, I'd like to see you express yourself using your own words. My understanding at the beginning of this thread was that you wanted to discuss the Trinity. Did you forget?

@djeggnog

The Finger

Undisfellowshipped,

djeggnog pointed out that Jesus isn't a lower god he is godlike, an angel.

yknot

Further Satan is described as the 'god of this system (age/world) in 2 Cor 4:4

UnDisfellowshipped

ynot,

Thank you for your post, but wouldn't serving Satan as a god violate the 1st Commandment for one of God's people?

yknot

Is Satan really a 'God' ?

UnDisfellowshipped

Satan is a "god" in the sense that people worship and serve him, just as the idols that people made were called "gods" or "false gods" because people worshiped them.

The Apostle Paul said there are many so-called "gods" in heaven and on earth, but that The Father and Jesus are NOT among the so-called "gods." (1 Cor. 8:4-6)

UnDisfellowshipped

djeggnog,

When I asked you which Scripture teaches that Jesus was created by God, you provided Revelation 3:14, which reads:

“And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

The Greek word for "beginning" there is "ARKHE" (sometimes spelled "ARCHE").

The Insight Book has this to say about this Greek word:

Insight, Volume 1, Page 991:

In the Christian Greek Scriptures forms of the word arkhe´ (beginning) are variously translated “principalities,” “governments,” “rulers,” “Sovereignties.” (KJ; Dy; NW; AT; JB)

-----------------

Also, at Revelation 21:6, Jehovah God is referred to as "The Beginning" (ARKHE).

"ARKHE" obviously did not mean that Jehovah was created.

Likewise, since ARKHE can mean "principality, government, ruler, sovereignty" and can also have the meaning of "beginner, source, origin" then Revelation 3:14 is absolutely not a very strong case for saying Jesus was created, especially not compared to the rest of the Bible.

I would not want to stake my eternal life on a faulty interpretation of one verse.

yknot

I would stake my life on Christian salvation and life being simple and not hinged on interpretations of either Athanasius nor Arius.

_________

Secondary comment.....

1 Cor 8:4-6 can be spun by both groups to support their belief.

PSacramento

@Psacramento:

Angels are created beings and as such, by their nature, are NOT divine.

This sounds like something that @UnDisfellowshipped would say, but I would like you to review Psalm 8:5, which describes the angels as "godlike ones" (hebrew, elohim), and then compare this thought with what the apostle Paul writes when quoting this very psalm at Hebrews 2:7, referring to these "godlike ones as "angels." And like the angels, the 144,000 are destined to become "sharers in divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), too, but they will have a higher station than the angels, and they will each have an incorruptible body just as Jesus has, as well as that same divine quality bodily that God and Jesus have, namely, immortality. (Colossians 1:19; 2:9)

Godlike and divine are not the samething, soemthing that WE create may be like us, but it is not US in nature.

Yes, angels were reffered to as "godlike" and "sons of God", that is why John and Paul made the distinction about Jesus, Not created liek them, but begotten, of the exact form of God, not "Godlike".

Yes, we can partake/participate of the divine, like Peter says in 2Peter 1:4, but partaking does not make us divine, no more than partking of beer, makes us beer.

;)

By the way, 2Peter 1:4 makes NO MENTION of 144K or any other number, lets us not go beyond what is written, ok?

1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

Making One’s Calling and Election Sure

3 His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness. 4 Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.

5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

Share this