TRINITY Challenge for JW's, Unitarians and Anyone Else

by UnDisfellowshipped 457 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  PSacramento

  FYI:

  In that same passage you can see what Peter believes makes one elected:

  5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; 6 and to knowledge, self-control; and to self-control, perseverance; and to perseverance, godliness; 7 and to godliness, brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness, love. 8 For if you possess these qualities in increasing measure, they will keep you from being ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins.

  10 Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, 11 and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

  Interesting eh?
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  djeggnog

  @The Finger:

  djeggnog pointed out that Jesus isn't a lower god he is godlike, an angel.

  During his prehuman existence (as the archangel Michael), Jesus was a god or godlike, for as I pointed out in a previous post, the Hebrew word _elohim_ is rendered "gods" (plural) at Psalm 8:5, and as I also pointed out, at Hebrews 2:7, the apostle Paul quotes Psalm 8:5 and in doing so uses the word "angels," which makes it quite clear that when Michael's life was transferred to his human mother so that he came to be born as a human, Jesus didn't have the divine nature that he possessed when he was an angel living in heaven, for Paul explains that Jesus was "lower than the angels" when he was here on earth with us since he could only be in possession of the human nature that we humans have.

  Lest we forget, the Bible teaches that "the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. As the one made of dust is, so those made of dust are also; and as the heavenly one is, so those who are heavenly are also." (1 Corinthians 15:40, 44, 48)

  Consequently, there is no way that anyone can prove scripturally that when he was living here on earth, that Jesus had a human body and was at the same time possessed of the divine nature any more so than one can prove that after his resurrection Jesus had a spiritual body while at the same time being in possession of the human nature. Paul says that one is either humans, who are made of dust, earthly, with physical bodies possessed of the human nature, or angels, who are heavenly with spiritual bodies possessed of the divine nature.

  At Philippians 2:6-8, Paul also explains that Jesus had formerly existed "in God's form," but upon emptying himself of his heavenly glory, he "took a slave's form, ... came to be in the likeness of men, and found himself," not as some "spiritualized" man or a hybrid "god-man," but "in fashion as a man," which scripture provides further proof that while he was living among other human beings here on earth, Jesus was as human as any other human being that is "lower than the angels."

  @djeggnog
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  PSacramento

  In all of Paul's writings, does he EVER say Jesus was an angel? Michael? Nope.

  In all of John's writings, does he ever say Jesus was an angel? Michael? Nope.

  In any of the gospels or letters does ANYONE ever say that? Nope.

  Does John of Patmos use the same name for Jesus and Michael in Revelation? Nope.

  Does he ever say they are one in the same? Nope.

  Dude...
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  yknot

  For the point of clarification......Org's stance on what is 'divine'

  *** it-1 p. 638 Divine ***
  DIVINE
  That which belongs to God or pertains to him, that which is godlike or heavenly.

  _______________

  DJEggnog,

  Since I copy/pasted my answers from the Insight comments on those scriptures and you assert that essentially I am ignorant of the 'TRUTH' where does that leave us?

  I am confused, does this mean you don't adhere to the WTS bible teaching on this matter or simply that you feel the WTS is wrong or limited in their statements?

  I notice you have yet to address me, maybe my post on page 17 simply go lost in the jumble but I am eager to discern your response as I am truly confused.
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  The Finger

  Djeggnog,

  So for this to work, Jesus being a godlike one, an angel you must be sure that he is Michael the archangel?
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  djeggnog

  @The Finger:

  So for this to work, Jesus being a godlike one, an angel you must be sure that he is Michael the archangel?

  I've already made this point adequately in this thread and in other thread as well) with regard to your question as to Jesus being the archangel Michael. There is no doubt that this is a fact, provided that one is willing to accept scriptural proof, for not everyone for whom Jesus' identity is an issue accepts the Bible as proof.

  You will find the scriptural evidence appended to my "Post 63 of 117." Here's the URL:

  http://tinyurl.com/27j63d8

  @djeggnog
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  The Finger

  djeggnog

  thank you, I will read it.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  djeggnog,

  As you are probably well aware of, the Inspired writers of the Christian-Greek Scriptures (Paul, John, Luke, Peter, James, Mark, Matthew, and Jude) quote from the Septuagint (an ancient Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures which began to be translated around 200 years before the time of Christ).

  Also, as you are probably aware of, the Septuagint contains many passages of Scripture which are DIFFERENT from the Masoretic Hebrew Text that has been passed down to us today. (Actually there are even different versions of the Septuagint that have been found).

  For example:

  Psalm 16:9-10 (NWT): Therefore my heart does rejoice, and my glory is inclined to be joyful. Also, my own flesh will reside in security. For you will not leave my soul in Sheol. You will not allow your loyal one to see the pit.

  Acts 13:35 (NWT): Hence he also says in another psalm, ‘You will not allow your loyal one to see corruption.’

  Notice: In the Masoretic Hebrew, Psalm 16 says that the Messiah's body will not see "THE PIT" (which is another term for Gehenna OR Sheol depending on the context), while the Septuagint version which was quoted by the Apostle at Acts 13:35 says that the Messiah's body will not see "CORRUPTION" (which Paul goes on to explain means that Christ's human body would not decay in the grave).

  Paul built his entire argument on the SEPTUAGINT version AS OPPOSED TO the Masoretic version that we have today.

  If we accept that the Inspired Apostle Paul was indeed Inspired, then we should accept the fact that the Septuagint (at least in this case) was MORE ACCURATE than the Masoretic that we have today.

  Another Example:

  Psalm 40:6-7 (NWT): Sacrifice and offering you did not delight in; These ears of mine you opened up. Burnt offering and sin offering you did not ask for. In view of that, I said: “Here I have come, In the roll of the book it being written about me.

  Hebrews 10:5-7 (NWT): Hence when he comes into the world he says: “‘Sacrifice and offering you did not want, but you prepared a body for me. You did not approve of whole burnt offerings and sin [offering].’ Then I said, ‘Look! I am come (in the roll of the book it is written about me) to do your will, O God.’”

  Notice once again, Paul is building his entire argument on the SEPTUAGINT version of Psalm 40:6-7 AS OPPOSED TO the Masoretic Hebrew that we have today. The Masoretic Hebrew of Psalm 40:6-7 says absolutely NOTHING about a body being prepared for the Messiah. Instead, the Masoretic version speaks of his ears being opened.

  Again, if we accept that Paul is Inspired, then we should accept that the Septuagint (at least in this case) is MORE ACCURATE than the Masoretic that we have today.

  Another Example:

  Deuteronomy 32:43 (NWT): Be glad, YOU nations, with his people, For he will avenge the blood of his servants, And he will pay back vengeance to his adversaries And will indeed make atonement for the ground of his people.”

  Hebrews 1:6 (NWT): But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: “And let all God’s angels do obeisance to him.”

  Notice yet again, that Paul builds his entire argument on the SEPTUAGINT Version AS OPPOSED TO the Masoretic that we have today. The Masoretic Hebrew of Deuteronomy 32:43 says absolutely nothing about angels worshiping God or doing obeisance to the Messiah. However, the Septuagint DOES say all the angels should worship God.

  Without the Septuagint, many of Paul's arguments would have failed or would never have been made in the first place.

  Therefore, I think it is safe to conclude that in many places (at least in the places where the Septuagint is quoted by the Inspired Apostles and Disciples), that the Septuagint is more accurate than the Masoretic Hebrew that we have today.

  So, this would mean that when Paul quoted Psalm 8 and said "He was made a little lower than the angels," Paul was quoting from the MORE ACCURATE Septuagint instead of the Masoretic that we have today which says "He was made a little lower than the gods [or God]".

  Since the Inspired Paul quoted Psalm 8 as saying "ANGELS" then it should be safe to say that "ANGELS" is the correct rendering, and "ELOHIM" is NOT the correct rendering.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  But even if Psalm 8 does refer to angels as "gods," that does NOT mean that the word "god" has the definition of "ANGEL."

  Can you provide ANY Greek dictionaries which give the definition "ANGEL" for the Greek word for "GOD" [Theos]?

  The angels (if they are referred to as "gods"), are called "gods" in the sense of having a position of authority where they represent the True God and/or speak for Him, just as Moses was called a "god" to Pharaoh, and the Judges of Israel were called "gods" by Jehovah.

  The angels would be included in "those who are called gods." (1 Corinthians 8:4-6)

  The Inspired Apostle John said that The Logos was "a god" BEFORE ONE THING EVER CAME INTO EXISTENCE (John 1:1). Therefore, it was IMPOSSIBLE for the Logos to be "a god" in the same sense that the angels and judges were "gods," because the angels and judges were "gods" because they represented and spoke for God TO OTHERS.

  According to John 1:1, the Logos was "god" BEFORE He could have ever spoken to others or represented God to anyone else.

  Therefore, the word "god" must have a DIFFERENT MEANING at John 1:1 than it does in Psalm 8 or Psalm 82.
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  djeggnog,

  You say that "gods" in Deuteronomy 32:39 and Isaiah 44 means "gods who are immortal." But, where does the context of those passages say ANYTHING about immortality?

  The context in those passages is speaking of CREATION! Jehovah is PROVING that He is the ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD because He is the ONLY GOD who has ever MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH. (Isaiah 44:24)

  Therefore, when John 1:1-3 and Colossians 1:16 and Hebrews 1:10 say that JESUS is "a god" who MADE HEAVEN AND EARTH, they are declaring JESUS TO BE THE ONE AND ONLY TRUE GOD along with The Father.