by D wiltshire 46 Replies latest watchtower bible
D Wiltshire,
Don't be so insulting. Yes, I did think it through. Others disagreed with me, and kept talking about outside intelligence and its effect on the luggage. I was talking about the luggage itself, how it serves a purpose.
Now, hungry4life chose to rebut my point instead of insulting me, and that was appreciated. The point that luggage only has a purpose only if one is assigned to it is valid, I think, and I am still thinking about it.
Now Im not being contentious here, Im serious.
How do you know a piece of luggage does not have a mind?
Does a tree have consciousness? That makes you think doesnt it?
Maybe it does have a degree of consciousness, and if a tree does (tree consciousness) maybe a rock does too.
On a certain philosophical level, we can't know luggage doesn't possess intelligence. Perhaps there is an entire planet of leather luggage that sits around discussing the big ideas, attend parties, and basically have the luggage equivalent of the good life. Having never seen this happen, we humans tend to think they don't have intellgence. There is no brain that we recognize.
Just as with some cellular organisms. Which have a purpose without intelligence.
Seeker,
I'm not trying to insult.
I'm saying you don't understand the statement,"You can't have purpose without intelligence,"
You are not getting it.
Think a little more about the quoted statment before you stand by:
I think the initial premise may be flawed and needs further modification.Your comment that followed showed you don't understand what stated.
Not trying to insult, just trying to get to the point.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
I keep pointing out as well as demonstrating that I understood your premise from the beginning. Try actually rebutting my points if you disagree. Take on the cellular organisms and tell me how this fits your premise.
Another example that occurs to me: Every watch ants build an anthill, or a living bridge across water? They work together with a precision that implies intelligent design, but in fact they are acting on instinct without any intelligent thought of what they are doing. They are living creatures, building a bridge, that have no idea they are building a bridge. All they know is that they are doing this small part of a larger action, whatever that action is.
If you look down at what they are doing, it seems they have an intelligent purpose. Those who study ants know that is not the case (do some research -- it's an interesting topic). Ants have a purpose to fulfill at such times, without the intelligence to create that purpose. Purpose without intelligence.
I understand the concept of the original premise. But it's too all-encompassing. There are exceptions to the rule.
Seeker,
I keep pointing out as well as demonstrating that I understood your premise from the beginning.
No you don't.
Try actually rebutting my points if you disagree.
OK.
Take on the cellular organisms and tell me how this fits your premise.Tell me how it doesn't first. Lets see if you have.
As always when I hear a definitive, I look for the exceptions. I wonder if this is actually true.Wonder away!
What is the purpose of a piece of luggage? Right, to allow you to carry things easily. Does a piece of luggage have intelligence?The piece of luggage was made BY intelligence it does not need to HAVE intelligence, and intelligence is reason for its purpose.
Your next post:
Well, with the origins of life, you would have inanimate material with no intelligence that somehow mutates into a reproductive organism.Again how come it "some how mutated"
It survives and passes on its genetic material in whatever proto form it was back then.Question, did it decide to do this all by itself? And why reproduce a exaxct copy, why not something different if no intelligence is involved?
All those organisms that didn't pass on the 'reproduce and survive' impulse died off.Why did they have to die? Why couldn't they live forever? Since no intelligence is involved they should have done something that required no intelligence?
Those organisms that did pass on the 'reproduce and survive' impulse propagated. Therefore, a purpose was born that had no intelligence behind it.I think Evolution is probably True.
We see the same process at work with certain types of cellular organisms -- no intelligence at work, just a process, but the purpose is clear: survive and grow.Survive and Grow,.. a programed purpose, with no intelligence behind it. How do you know the programed response to Survive and Grow came about from a lack of intelligence?
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Ah, a response, thanks.
You say you think evolution is probably true. May I suggest that you continue reading on the subject, as the questions you raise indicate you don't understand the theory very well. Not trying to be insulting, it's just that your questions are easily answered.
Again how come it "some how mutated" and progessed to duplicating itself, a pretty amazing feat for no intelligence.It's actually quite simple, given enough time. No intelligence required. If it didn't mutate, it wouldn't have duplicated itself, and there would be no point in discussing it. Only once one did was there anything worth noting.
It survives and passes on its genetic material in whatever proto form it was back then.It didn't "decide" anything. Genetics just works. There is no intelligence involved, just biology.Question did it decide to do this all by itself. And why reproduce a exaxct copy, why not something different if no intelligence is involved?
quote:Physical forces act against living forever. A brick wall will stop a moving car, no intelligence required.
All those organisms that didn't pass on the 'reproduce and survive' impulse died off.Why did they have to die? Why couldn't they live forever? Since no intelligence is involved they couldn't they have done something that required no intelligence?
quote:No, it's how evolution is explained, which is why I suggested at the beginning that you might benefit from researching the subject some more. You questions indicate you don't understand that which you think is "probably true."
Those organisms that did pass on the 'reproduce and survive' impulse propagated. Therefore, a purpose was born that had no intelligence behind it.I think Evolution is probably True.
But what sounds ludicrous to me is,.. No intelligence behind it. How do you know there was no intelligence behind evolution? Or is it just your assumption?
May I suggest www.talkorigins.org as a place to learn more about the subject? It's quite a good site. Please keep in mind that evolution does NOT discuss ultimate origins. If you wish to posit a God that started the evolutionary process, go right ahead. Many evolutionists do just that. That would encompass your intelligence idea. This deity would be the One who had the intelligence behind life.
My original point is that there are examples in nature of purpose without intelligence. Even if God is ultimately behind it all, there are still exceptions to the rule you posted. What you said is mostly true, unless you take the philosophical direction that there is no purpose to life (which is an entirely different idea), but not 100% true.
Seeker,
Physical forces act against living forever. A brick wall will stop a moving car, no intelligence required.Those same "physical forces that act against living forever" as you say don't they also work against reproducing and surviving?
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Those same "physical forces that act against living forever" as you say don't they also work against reproducing and surviving
Which is why we will both wear down and die someday. In the meantime, we can both reproduce and help humanity survive. Those physical forces don't prevent survival, just make it necessary to have to fight to survive. Which life does.
