by D wiltshire 46 Replies latest watchtower bible
Seeker,
While youy're at it my brother, why do you postulate that "instinct" is devoid of any intelligence? Within each instinctual act, be it nest building, migration or other pre-programed behavior, there are still choices that an animal can make to accomplish the primal urge to accomplish its task. Would this "choosing" be evidence of intelligence?
Carmel
Not intelligence in the sense of thought as you or I would define it, no. The ants don't think about what they are doing. They don't have a goal in mind. They don't have anything that you or I would think of as intelligence.
Cellular organisms don't even have the limited brain ability that ants do. There is truly an example of purpose without intelligence or even instinct at work.
Seeker,
Your idea of intelligence I disagree with:
Not intelligence in the sense of thought as you or I would define it, no.Why does intelligence need to be thought of in this very narrow way? When I read what you say in these post you alway seem to contradict yourself over and over again. I'm not trying to be rude, but you do. I don't know how to put it any other way.
The ants don't think about what they are doing. They don't have a goal in mind. They don't have anything that you or I would think of as intelligence.See the contradiction? You say they don't have intelligence and in the same sentence you say aleast not what we would concider intelligence so you admit they may have intelligence, very confussing statements, not very well thought out. Sorry I have to say this I mean you no insult.
Cellular organisms don't even have the limited brain ability that ants do. There is truly an example of purpose without intelligence or even instinct at work.I think you need to research more what your talking about. BTW way you just contradicted yourself on the ants.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
Well, i couldn't resist a discussion on this subject. I don't have any problem following Seeker's rationale. He is distinguishing between instinct and intelligence. A being needs a brain for both. But they are not the same.
instinct: The innate, complex, and normally adaptive aspect of animal behavior.
intelligence: The capacity to learn and to solve problems and difficulties.
It seems to me that ants, spiders, etc. show only instinct, as brilliant as it may be. Squirrels kept in captivity store nuts for the winter, tho they're never exposed to cold winters. This is instinct and instinct only.
Some larger animals and more closely related to humans such as chimps do show problem-solving abilities to a lesser degree than humans.
When referring to outside intelligence being needed for something to have a purpose, this--imho--is specious reasoning. Natural selection, as Seeker clearly explained, is the force that is responsible.
I didn't understand any of the specific terms such as 'natural selection,' 'non-random mutations,' etc. until i did some reading by the scientists themselves. Until then, i was familiar only with the incorrect term fundamentalists use "blind chance.'
Cheers!
Pat
"It's easier to put on slippers than to carpet the world." (from "Stuart Saves His Family")
D Wiltshire,
You are misreading my words, which is why you think I am contradicting myself even though I am not. Pat understood what I was saying.
quote:No insult received, for you were the one who misunderstood what I was saying. I was talking about the ants carrying out a task by instinct. At such times, they are not using intelligence at all. My phrase, "They don't have anything that you or I would think of as intelligence" was merely a kind way of phrasing it. I could have said simply, "they are not using intelligence at such times" and be done with it, but that would have so directly contradicted your premise that I wanted to find a kinder way to phrase it.
The ants don't think about what they are doing. They don't have a goal in mind. They don't have anything that you or I would think of as intelligence.See the contradiction? You say they don't have intelligence and in the same sentence you say aleast not what we would concider intelligence so you admit they may have intelligence, very confussing statements, not very well thought out. Sorry I have to say this I mean you no insult.
quote:No, I don't need to research more, for what I said was true. May I suggest that you do some more reseach and then you'll understand what I was saying. And no, I did not contradict myself about the ants. They are acted by instinct. Cellular organisms don't even have that.
Cellular organisms don't even have the limited brain ability that ants do. There is truly an example of purpose without intelligence or even instinct at work.I think you need to research more what your talking about. BTW way you just contradicted yourself on the ants.
I'll say it again: you need to study this issue more. The answers are not as simple as your initial premise makes it out to be.
Seeker,
I could have said simply, "they are not using intelligence at such times" and be done with it, but that would have so directly contradicted your premise that I wanted to find a kinder way to phrase it.I don't think we need to worry about kindly phrasing something, if it is going to obscure a point, I think you and I are big enough to not waste time taking offense. Instinct by ants to many would be concidered intelligence by no stretch of the imagination.
No, I don't need to research more, for what I said was true. May I suggest that you do some more reseach and then you'll understand what I was saying.Maybe we both need to learn more?
And no, I did not contradict myself about the ants. They are acted by instinct. Cellular organisms don't even have that.So are you narrowing your definition of intelligence to this: You have to have conscience thoughts, in "words" in the mind?
I'll say it again: you need to study this issue more. The answers are not as simple as your initial premise makes it out to be.I will study it more. I put it out here on JWD for the purpose of seeing if it can be refutted. I still don't think you fully understand the premise, and so have not refutted it for this reason.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
So are you narrowing your definition of intelligence to this: You have to have conscience thoughts, in "words" in the mind?
Do you believe intelligence can be expressed without conscience thoughts of words?
I do, maybe not on the level of man conscienceness, but intelligence just the same.
Let me explain again. Ants have a level of intelligence, yes, but NOT directed at the tasks I was talking about. When they set about to make a living bridge across water, they do NOT know that is what they are doing. The end result of their group effort results in a bridge, but each individual ant is acting according to instinct, not intelligence about what they are doing. Intelligence in the sense of a recognition that they are trying to build a bridge. They actually have no concept of this at all.
Thus they have a purpose (build a bridge) without any intelligence about that purpose (they don't realize this is what they are doing). Purpose without intelligence.
Yes, they have some intelligence, but not directed at their purpose. That is what I am talking about.
I will study it more. I put it out here on JWD for the purpose of seeing if it can be refutted. I still don't think you fully understand the premise, and so have not refutted it for this reason.I've noticed you've repeatedly ignored my cellular organism example. I think the problem is that I have refuted your premise, but you don't want to admit it, so you pretend I don't know what I am talking about.
Your examples I have read and reread and they lead me to conclude you are not thinking your examples thru to any depth.
So I don't understand the topic, and I'm not thinking my posts through. Fine, think what you want. It's clear you don't want honest dialog over this issue. You want to believe there are no exceptions to your premise? Go right ahead. Don't change the reality of the situation.
I have said all I need to say on this issue. Those who want to learn more, can learn more. I hope you are among that number as you will see there is a lot to learn in this area. And yes, I am learning too, as my handle makes clear.
Seeker,
I believe you are making the distinction between rational thought versuses non rational thought. To understand that they are building a bridge, the ants would need to have rational thought which we know they do not have. However, they clearly know that they are doinging a task to get to the point that they need or want to go.
Intelligence can and does exist without rational thought, but the lack of rational thought does not mean that intelligence doesn't exist at a lesser level.
You were correct when you said that natural selection does not explain the origins of life. I hold to the believe of an intelligent designer. Because without it, how can you explain the development of rational thought?
Seeker,
Thus they have a purpose (build a bridge) without any intelligence about that purpose (they don't realize this is what they are doing). Purpose without intelligence.Copy of title of thread:: You Can't Have Purpose Without Intelligence...
Yes, they have some intelligence, but not directed at their purpose. That is what I am talking about.
I've noticed you've repeatedly ignored my cellular organism example. I think the problem is that I have refuted your premise, but you don't want to admit it, so you pretend I don't know what I am talking about.No I'm not pretending you don't know what you are talking about, I'm saying you haven't thought it thru enough. I will answer your cellular example, but I'd like to give somebody else a chance to do so if they'd like if not I will.
So I don't understand the topic, and I'm not thinking my posts through. Fine, think what you want. It's clear you don't want honest dialog over this issue. You want to believe there are no exceptions to your premise? Go right ahead. Don't change the reality of the situation.I want to be honest, I want to learn, I hope you likewise will see "there is alot to learn in this area". I'm a Seeker too.
I have said all I need to say on this issue. Those who want to learn more, can learn more. I hope you are among that number as you will see there is a lot to learn in this area. And yes, I am learning too, as my handle makes clear.
If someone lived a trillion X longer than you, and had a billion X more reasoning ability would he come to the same conclusions as you?
RWC,
However, they clearly know that they are doinging a task to get to the point that they need or want to go.Not even that, actually. They have no thought of any kind of what they are doing, other than obeying an instinct that governs the group.
Your point about rational versus nonrational thought is a good one. And sure, go ahead and assume that God started the whole ball rolling if you want. No problem. However, how would one classify the actions and purpose of a cellular organism that has no thoughts of any kind? Purpose without intelligence.
