For Atheists & Strong Agnostics: (Believers can counter-post also!)

by UnDisfellowshipped 43 Replies latest jw friends

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  Crisis of Conscience

  I'm only about a year into these new feelings/thoughts/beliefs, so bear with me as I'm not completely sure as to what I truly believe.

  But as I have posted before, many of the "miracles" that are written in the Bible are yet to be verified. And by verified I mean seen physically performed and observed in our day. (Just a few examples - donkey talking, sea splitting in half, wrestling with an angel, being swallowed by a "fish" and surviving, etc.) If they are all so TRUE, why don't they happen today, as something normal? It's really puts a damper on my belief of the Bible.

  Many things regarding morality in the Bible still make sense, and I apply them where they make sense and where I can. But the credibilty regarding "miracles" is no longer there. Heck I can't believe I fell for it all these years.

  As far as God goes, I don't completely write him/her/it off. Humans are truly capable of creating and making such beautiful and wonderful things. I don't think it is too far off to believe that we too were created. But by whom/what, and for what reason, I cannot answer, nor is it something I really ponder right now. Perhaps it's my age that is prohibiting that.

  The part I struggle with in believing in a God actually involves my JW upbringing. I have no hope of going to heaven and could care less about arguing at this time about my final destination in the future. But assuming I have an "earthly hope", as I have been taught, why do I/have I spend/spent so much time trying to defend a being I will never meet? I am going to paste what I wrote about this at this link. http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/195425/1/Why-do-many-of-us-spend-so-many-years-defending-a-God-we-MAY-never-meet

  As a JW who is part of the "great crowd" I will, as has been taught, never see God face-to-face, never meet Him.

  So I "take in knowledge" about him, defend all these things that I just can't understand or explain why he would do them, and then still not physically see or get to know him?

  When is the last time you spoke to someone REGULARLY on the phone, internet, etc. and not wondered what this person looks like or desired to meet them in person?

  I do believe there has to be some sort of creator. It's kind of odd that things would've happened by chance, but that is another topic.

  But this whole thing of putting faith in someone I have never seen, met, will see, or meet is really starting to falter in my mind.

  I don't make any sort of effort to push these ideas on anyone. But it is very difficult for me to see and understand how people can "have faith" in the Bible or God with such simple logic. As a famous TV judge in America likes to say, "If it doesn't make sense, it's probably not true." And that saying sums up my current feelings.

  I hope I don't flip flop in my beliefs as much as the WTS! Oh yeah, GREAT topic!

  CoC
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  cyberjesus

  "if you posted a short (or long) summary of what the reasons and basis are for your not believing that there is a God"

  your request is as logic as me asking you what are your reasons for not believing that the flying spagetthi monster does not exits...

  do you get it? I do not claim God does not exists. But in order for me to believe in something i need evidence of it. I wont believe anything just because my peers do so. I am done being a believer of anything there is no evidence it exists.
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  zombie dub

  I do not believe in God because: There is no proof.

  I do not believe in fairies, hobgoblins, wizards, orcs, leprechauns, unicorns, minotaurs and lizardmen for the same reason.

  Why is it not questioned that the latter group of creatures are mythical, but God - for whom there is the same amount of proof as there are minotaurs - is believed in by so many?

  I think the onus is on the believers to proof there *is* a god, rather than atheists to prove there is not. If this is not the case then should we also assume everything else we can imagine also exists until proven otherwise?
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  UnDisfellowshipped

  Zombie, CyberJesus, Bek,

  Thank you for your posts!

  I would agree that the onus is on the believer to present the evidence for the existence of God. The purpose of this thread is just to hopefully facilitate better understanding of different people's beliefs and viewpoints. I appreciate you posting yours here.

  Also, I guess you could look at it this way:

  Imagine you are living in a far away land (a third-world country) where 90% of the population believe in ghosts and spirits, and you are trying to explain to them why you do not believe in ghosts and spirits.

  You could view living in the United States in a similar way (since somewhere around 90% of US citizens believe in a God or Creator/Designer).
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  Caedes

  I think we are all agnostics, theists cannot empirically prove the existence of their god and atheists cannot prove a negative. Hence, since nobody can prove anything, we are all agnostics. Obviously the term agnostic isn't a very useful phrase in the debate.

  I am an atheist, I don't believe in god in the same way I don't believe in fairies or santa claus or inded anything supernatural. I am as certain that god doesn't exist in much the same way any rational person is certain that santa is a fairytale for children. I can't prove it of course but then nobody feels the need to disprove santa before they can be certain.

  Theists may claim that such a position requires faith in the same way their belief in god requires faith, unfortunately for them it requires no faith to discount things for which no empirical evidence has been presented. It is not an intellectually taxing exercise to discount all the supposed 'proof' presented by theists as hearsay, coincidence, mental illness, wishful thinking and blatant egotism.

  The bible can be discounted for what it is, there are far too many holes for it to be anything but the work of man. The flood didn't happen as recorded in the bible or there would be hard evidence of it in the geology of Earth and there would have to be an awful lot more water here. But the mistakes in the bible are not what makes me discount it, since I start from the premise that there is no such thing as god then the bible is just the writings of fallible men who didn't understand things as well as we do today. Hence they thought that a person could be turned to salt and that the Earth came before the Sun. Of course theists discount the parts of the bible they don't like but few are willing to admit they do it let alone tell you what criteria they apply to decide what are hard rules and what can be ignored.

  I am not an anti-theist since I believe everyone (even JWs) should be free to worship and believe whatever they like providing they don't try to force their rules onto people who don't share their beliefs of course (something theists tend to be very keen on).
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  finallysomepride

  An atheist was walking through the woods.
  
  'What majestic trees!
  'What powerful rivers! 'What beautiful animals!
  He said to himself.
  
  S uddenly, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.
  He turned to look and saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charging towards him.

  He ran as fast as he could along the path.
  He looked over his shoulder & saw that the bear was closing on him.
  He looked over his shoulder again, and the bear was even closer, and then, he tripped and fell.

  Rolling over to pick himself up, he found the bear was right on top of him reaching towards him wi th its left paw and raising the right paw to strike.

  At that instant the Atheist cried out, 'Oh my God!'Time stopped, the bear froze, the forest was silent,
  
  A bright light shone upon the man, and a voice came out of the sky.
  
  "You deny my existence for all these years,
  you teach others I don't exist and even credit creation to cosmic accident?
  Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? "
  
  "Am I to count you as a believer?"
  The atheist looked directly into the light,
  "It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?"
  ... a pause ... "Very well," said the voice .. .
  
  The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed,
  
  and the bear brought both paws together,
  bowed his head & spoke,

  "Lord, bless this food, which I amabout to receive."
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  AK - Jeff

  I like to cast aside the words 'belief' and 'faith' in any discussion regarding atheism.

  But when discussing those who believe in god those words imply by their very nature that 'believers' cannot prove that the invisible spirits they worship/fear are real. They fall back on 'faith' as the touchstone of their life. To me it would be tantamount to basing our entire life around Santa or the Tooth Fairy. In fact, Santa and the Tooth Fairy have precisely the same percentage of potential to exist as do god/jesus/satan/zeus/ra... etc.

  That said: if incontrovertible proof popped up, I would be happy to logically consider if it made sense for me to 'worship' the proven being. It may not make any sense - depending on the personality/character of said being[s]. If this 'god' had the evil character of the god represented in the pages of the OT, I would decline, no matter his/her power to insist. I don't like humans that encourage rape, slavery, disrespect for women, and the slaughter of innocent nations that get in the way of his/her people. So, why on earth would I wish to worship a bully-god like that? But a legitimately kind and benevolent god might be worthy of consideration, as long as I was not required to surrender my free will/free thought.

  It may also depend on whether this being wished to be worshiped. I am not interested in kissing Divine ass just because it is. If this was a benevolent god, and asked me to become a worshiper, then likely my atheism would end that moment. But never on the basis of 'faith' and 'belief' - just not interested in that form of life that revolves around worship of invisible people who do not care enough to show themselves.

  Jeff
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  Deputy Dog

  I would agree that the onus is on the believer to present the evidence for the existence of God.

  Really? To unbelievers? So YOU are going to present the universe, to someone living in the universe, as evidence for God? Can you show me that "the onus is on the believer" from the bible? My bible, says God has been meeting that burden from the beginning. Romans 1: 18-20
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  wobble

  I do not think it matters one way or the other to me if God exists or not for much the same reasons as outlined above by AK-Jeff and other posters.

  What is important to me is that I try each day to make the world a better place than it would be if I was not in it.

  I try to live by the Golden Rule and to bring a bit of happiness, good cheer and laughter to each person I speak to.

  I do not need a God, what are they for ??? it would be good if there was an "Afterlife" , I don't believe that there is, but if there was maybe I would still not know anything about God even then, or whether "HE" existed, who can say ?

  I do not see the point of God.
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  zombie dub

  Can you show me that " the onus is on the believer" from the bible?

  Can you show me that "the onus is not on the believer" from Peter Pan and his adventures in Never-Never Land?