Onemore,
Thank you, and I appreciate the point you are trying to make.
For Atheists & Strong Agnostics: (Believers can counter-post also!)
by UnDisfellowshipped 43 Replies latest jw friends
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darth frosty
LeavingWT This was beautiful!
'Let us be true to ourselves -- true to the facts we know, and let us, above all things, preserve the veracity of our souls.
If there be gods we cannot help them, but we can assist our fellow-men. We cannot love the inconceivable, but we can love wife and child and friend.
We can be as honest as we are ignorant. If we are, when asked what is beyond the horizon of the known, we must say that we do not know. We can tell the truth, and we can enjoy the blessed freedom that the brave have won.' -
Deputy Dog
The onus is on us (the believers) to present an apologetic (give a defense) which includes asking the unbelievers to examine the physical Universe (and its origin, the Big Bang), in order to get them to think about HOW this Universe came to be, and HOW it came to be so finely tuned. (1st Peter 3:15; Colossians 4:5-6; Romans 10:14)
The verses you quoted don't say anything close to your words.
For example:
1Pe 3:15
but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
I'm ready to give a defence for my hope which is Christ as LORD...when asked. There is nothing even implied about the big bang.
Do you believe Romans 1:18-20 or not? Does God make that which is known about himself evident or not? Yes or No
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ziddina
"I learned that just as assuredly WTS tells us that archaeology doesn't support evolution, archaeology does an excellent job of determining that the exodus never happened. (I also learned better about archeaology that it does support/virtually prove as an absolute beyond a reasonable doubt that evolution happened.) ..."
Uh, ONTheWayOut, wonderful sentiment... But you meant Paleontology, not archaeology, right??? And Anthropology, and Paleo-Anthropology, and certain branches of Biology, too...
Archaeology proves that there were many deities in existence [worshipped by the latest groups of Homo Sapiens...] before the deities of the bible were written into existence...
Zid
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ziddina
Aaaaand, as "FinallySomePride" said, "and the bear brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke, "Lord, bless this food, which I am about to receive."
Thank you, FinallySomePride, for illustrating so clearly that Christian tendency to believe in illogical, *!*magical*!* stories that have no basis in reality...
Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself a "Christian"???
Zid
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cyberjesus
It's as if some of us are speaking a foreign language.
Either our words have meaning or they do not.
The more i speak or listen to theist the more i become anti-theist
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Awakened at Gilead
Onemore, well said to the "Creator Deniers".
Unfortunately, I think you might be a Creator "Creator Denier". Because we all know that everyone was made by the creator, so the creator must have been made by the creator's creator. But I suppose you deny that self evident truth.
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cyberjesus
haha thats a good point. So you must be an aTheist of the Creators Creator.
and FYI we were all born Atheists but most of them changed by their education at home and at church.
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ZeusRocks
Here I will just address the christian god side of things, but the principles can be used for any god that has ever existed within the human brain.
Everything we know about god or jesus, we got from the bible. Without the bible, the jesus myth would have died out long ago.
The bible itself contains inferior knowledge to what we now know about our planet and solar system. Eg. the luminaries in genesis , one for day and one for night. We know the moon is not a source of light, it's a reflects it. Joshua asking for the sun to stand still and god did...the earth moves not the sun. The earth is not a circle but a sphere, and the hebrew language had a word for sphere, which was duwr (ball - a ball is always a sphere without exception), but in the bible the word used is chuwg (which is a circle like in a compass or coin). The history of the israelites is fictitious and emormous embellishments. That's only a couple of things in the old testament which show there was no divine direction in the writing - not even mentioning the laws.
Jesus is a different ball game in the fact that there is not one shred of contemporary physical evidence of his existence. The gospels are not a witness to him as they were written decades after his supposed death and historians and scholars have no idea who wrote them. The gospels didn't exist during the alleged life of Jesus nor did any of the authors make the claim to have met an earthly jesus. The gospels are nothing but hearsay and cannot be used as any form of evidence of truth. Also the fact that the gospels were written almost virtually in the thrid person. People who wish to portray themselves as eyewtinesses will write in the first person. Many of the passages attributed the jesus were the invention of the authors as many passages relate to things said when he was alone and even thought, the same techniques that fictional writers used. At best the gospels are hearsay, and at worst, as fictional, mythological, or falsified stories.
There is not one contemporary extra biblical account of jesus to be found anywhere. Jesus was apparently famous throughout the region, by preists, roman governor pilate, even herod. Yet no one even mentions a thing. No preaching, no trouble maker causing problems, no trial, no execution, no eclipse, no earthquake. Nothing outside the bible.
The "evidence" believers use for the existence of jesus is even less credible than the "evidence" the ancient greeks had for believing in Hercules, yet Hercules is dismissed. Hercules had a lot more written about him than jesus ever did. So why the double standard? It doesn't make sense.
When it comes to god(s), people believe what they want to believe and their god is whatever they want him, her or it to be. No evidence required, just what they feel and interperet. There was actually a study done using an mri machine I think, I wish I could find it now, but they did a study on the god part of the brain, but asking people what god wanted of them, and the part of the brain that is active during asking and answering that question, is the same part of the brain that is active when asking what they themselves want. Just a little extra info.
I think I've rambled on enough. I could go on more but this is just a small part of the reason I now find it completely illogical to believe in any god without real demonstrable evidence, same with santa, dragons, mermaids, medusa, fairies, unicorns.
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wobble
I am a little perplexed that the simplistic argument used by believers "Just look at the universe and your own body (I really don't want to do that ugh!)
and the "fine tuning" of the Universe blah blah blah...."
The argument from complexity, and the "fine tuning" rubbish (there is none), and similar arguments, have all been dealt with long ago.
Before you guys, (smug believers), post crap on here, please do the minimum of research in to the subject.
O.K let me just for a moment pretend that there was an "Intelligent Designer" of the Universe, then what ? it makes no difference to me, not one jot.
Thanks Undy, for the thread and the PM