Adam and Eve and free will

by inbetween 125 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  tec

  So, those scriptures never said ANYTHING about Adam and Eve. Extending it out to them is wishful thinking or conjecture.

  That's right - those scriptures don't say anything about Adam and Eve. They do say something about Christ, though, and therefore also God. I am applying the understanding that I get from Christ to those and any other writings. I also find it somewhat telling that Adam and Eve aren't written to seem even the slightest bit confused that they were still physically alive.

  Adressing your question, however, Paul DID say that through Adam sin and death entered into the world. Granted, that doesn't ever say he was perfect, but that's what the JW's and some (not me) use to suggest he and Eve were perfect prior to the sin. I don't read that into what he said, but some do.

  I was just curious if there was actually a scripture that said it. I hear people talking about perfection, and the fall, and so on and so on, and I'm always curious how they come to these things.

  Not to mention that our ideas of perfection are varied.

  *sigh*....you suck, Tammy :)

  ;)

  Tammy
• 

  palmtree67

  I love this thread.

  I'm still leaning toward the gnostic view of Adam and Eve and free will, though.
• 

  notverylikely

  I also find it somewhat telling that Adam and Eve aren't written to seem even the slightest bit confused that they were still physically alive.

  They clearly knew that god was lying. It's easy to figure that out when I can add in things that aren't there when it suits me, like "spiritual death" :)
• 

  tec

  The Bible speaks of human perfection on numerous occasions.

  I know it speaks of Jesus as being perfect. I can't recall it speaking of anyone else being perfect. Could you show me those scriptures? I truly do not recall.

  Why would the perfect man Jesus be a corresponding ransom for a man created imperfect?

  He wouldn't be, and he isn't. He gave far, far more and his sacrifice and gift meant far, far more than a tit for tat with Adam. I know that Paul compares death coming into the world through the one man's sin (Adam), because all men sin - to grace coming to the world through the one man, Christ. But that doesn't mean that Jesus was just evening things out, like a tit for tat. Paul, himself, even says that the gift was greater than the trespass because Christ was covering all men's sins, out of love for his Father and for us.

  I don't believe in such a legalistic view of the 'ransom' - though I understand it is an interpretation of many. But a perfect man dying for an imperfect people though - now that speaks of love and of mercy and of sacrifice.

  Tammy
• 

  palmtree67

  What does it mean to be "created perfect?"

  Adam and Eve were dying when they were created. Otherwise, why would they have been kept from the Tree of Life?
• 

  tec

  They clearly knew that god was lying. It's easy to figure that out when I can add in things that aren't there when it suits me, like "spiritual death" :)

  So then do you have a point of reference for why that's so clear to you?

  :)

  Honestly, though, I'm not adding things to suit me. I know it seems that way to others, but I'm just looking at God and the accounts attributed to him through the example that Christ showed us. Jesus was concerned about us doing good to others, in the here and now. But when he spoke of life and death, it was usually (if not always) spiritual life and death.

  Tammy
• 

  sabastious

  Adam and Eve were dying when they were created. Otherwise, why would they have been kept from the Tree of Life?

  This is a level headed person right here!

  -Sab
• 

  inbetween

  wow, the thread picked up .....

  anyway, thanks, interesting replies...

  Regarding the tree of life: i discussed it once with an interested person, he had the idea, that humans got a kind of inner clock, that ticks towards death, and by eating the from the tree of life, they can set it to zero again. Once they turned against God, they were denied access to this tree, and therefore slowly died.

  Sounded interesting, but I checked the insight book, were this idea was repulsed.

  But what real function did the tree of life have ? To give them eventually immortality, as the WT explains ? Ok, so then this period of time before would be a test from God, but God doesnt try anyone according to James ?

  Regarding free will: Clearly God was upset about the decision of Adam and Eve, because he banned them from Eden, and it was necessary, as Paul states, that mankind becomes reconciled with God again.

  But what really is free will ? Of course, on a daily basis we usually claim, that we make decisons consciously and free, however is this really the case ?

  For example, I walk into a store to buy a shirt. There is a wide selection, and from all them I pick lets say a blue Ralp Lauren shirt. I go home and think I made a real decision out of free will. But is this the case ? Maybe I bought the shirt because I like blue (from childhood on), I like the cut of Ralph lauren, because it reminds me subconscioulsy of something I feel comfortable with, I finally bought it, because the music in the store is designed to encourage sells, etc...

  So in the end, my so to say free will decision, was only a product of my upbringing, genetic disposition, influences from envrionment etc...just afterwards I claim, it was my free decsion, when it was not.
• 

  sabastious

  So in the end, my so to say free will decision, was only a product of my upbringing, genetic disposition, influences from envrionment etc...just afterwards I claim, it was my free decsion, when it was not.

  You are correct. We are all the sum of our experience. But I think humaninty goes further than that with the Spark of Life: that intangible force that seems to permeate all that is quantifiable or perceivable.

  -Sab
• 

  tec

  What does it mean to be "created perfect?"

  That's a good question. I think we'd all have different answers.

  If perfection meant never dying, and if Adam and Eve were created perfect, then why would they have needed a tree of life in the first place?

  Tammy