Adam and Eve and free will

by inbetween 125 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Terry

  Everything which exists has its own nature.

  That nature...that each-ness...distinguishes it from every other thing.

  Humans have their own individuality among their species.

  Each individual has an individual nature while still fitting into the spectrum of variation possible.

  Having said all of that, I say this. Escape from your nature is impossible.

  What man does and did stems from how man's nature causes him to act.

  Our value heirarchy allows us to pursue goals and purposes according to our nature.

  For Adam, being like God was topmost in his heirarchy of values.

  This made the value of obedience secondary.

  The "fall" of man is merely an unfortuante description of man pursuing his own nature.

  God does not get to either punish or rescue mankind untill man "falls".

  Those who are destroyed and those who are saved was decided by God BEFORE man was created with the very nature that made

  the salvation or damnation possible.

  In short: the game is rigged to make God the hero.

  If you want to read a magnificent novel about the GODGAME read John Fowles' masterpiece: THE MAGUS.

  The Magus (novel) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  The Magus (1966) is the first novel written (but second published) by British author John Fowles. It tells the story of Nicholas Urfe, a teacher on a small ...
  Background - Plot summary - Characters - Ending
• 

  JWoods

  I just almost mentioned on my post above that Terry made a long, long, thread several weeks ago on free will.

  As I recall - Terry does not believe in free will.
• 

  sabastious

  BTW - the JW view of earthly paradise pretty much reduces all humans left on earth back to the robotic state of Adam and Eve had they not sinned - thus, to my viewpoint - pretty much without free will again.

  This is exactly true. Yet most JWs will speculate that the "new scrolls" are much more exciting then just the life that Adam and Eve had.

  -Sab
• 

  sabastious

  As I recall - Terry does not believe in free will.

  Free will exists and is the sole determining factor of human psychological and sociological evolution.

  -Sab
• 

  sabastious

  Of course we COULD mince words and say that our "makeup" is predisposed nullifying any TRUE free will but I think that is a poppycock argument and a copout.

  If you want to get technical I would use the word sentience.

  Humans have the highest form of sentience on the planet compared with all other Earthly life. This is our "x-factor" so-to-speak. High capacity for sentience is a major step in psychological and sociological evolution.

  We have to FEEL our surroundings in a sentient way before free will becomes even in the realm of possibility.

  -Sab
• 

  Darth plaugeis

  Ok I'll play....

  Adam And Eve Is True...... It's the Truth...... Yada Yada Yada they eat... freewill

  I like the idea of they didn't know the consequences. (Fast Forward)......................................

  Noah's Day............ God's Angle's knew the consequences for disobeying God....... but DID!!!!! Freewill.

  So what happens.... they turn to Demons and are banned from Heaven...

  Sounds like God can't create things that would Normally Love and Obey?????

  Who's the bad guy????

  Maybe God should do what Mankind Does......

  Start a RECALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
• 

  Terry

  I just almost mentioned on my post above that Terry made a long, long, thread several weeks ago on free will.

  As I recall - Terry does not believe in free will.

  Semantics, m'lad. Semantics.

  Unless you define and question your own presuppositions your conclusions will always be tainted.

  Garbage in=Garbage out

  In any discussion or question of FREE anything you must raise the issue of FROM WHAT.

  Free....from what?

  We are not FREE from our tastes and values and experiences and nurtured bias.

  Where do you start the circle of "FREE"?

  That is what is hindering the comprehension necessary in this topic. The nature of each component of energy/matter in this universe inter-relates

  in a complex heirarchy of dependance. Cause and Effect are merely a question of when you want to decide the clock started.

  Life, Humanity and nature are not a movie with a beginning, middle and end contextualized by an over-arching PLOT and directed by an Auteur in the sky.

  As I recall - Terry does not believe in free will.

  Free will exists and is the sole determining factor of human psychological and sociological evolution.

  An Absolute statement produced like a rabbit out of the magician's hat. It is an assertion. How are you able to demonstrate that things are not

  locked into their own nature?
• 

  PSacramento

  The fall of Adma and Eve is a story, a lesson, in the dangers of wanting more than we have, of desiring without regard of consequence.

  Adam and Eve are symbolic of the "first humans" to be "touched" By God and the wonderful give the God gave them and the story is also goes to show that, even with all that was given to them, they were not "content" and wanted more ( to be like God and know all - Good and evil being representative of that).

  It was their choice and they made it full aware of the repercusssions.

  A story and lesson to all about free will and the consequences of our actions - Don't blame the Snake, YOU were the one that took the bite.
• 

  notverylikely

  It was their choice and they made it full aware of the repercusssions.

  How could they have been fully aware if God had intentionally restricted their ability to know?
• 

  kurtbethel

  I have had many discussions with my JWs about this story, and they have some very nonsensical views. The first thing they assert is that Adam and Eve were perfect. When I ask for scriptural support they have none, but attempt to do some garbled "reasoning". I maintain that scripture says they were good, and not perfect, and if they were perfect they would not have any desire to sin. However, God put the biochemistry and brain wiring in place to desire certain things as pleasurable, then made the fruit to be attractive to those desires he created, when he could have made it like broccoli or something.

  I have expressed to them that this is an experiment God did, and they do not like it. I ask if God knew ahead of time what the outcome would be and they said he did not, and if he did know it would be predestination. That is not the meaning of that word. I point out that God willfully created them the way he did, and created the fruit so it was desirable, and then hid away and allowed a dangerous creature to go and be with them. I compared it to an adult going off and leaving a child in a room with a viper. Then I told them that God allowed the serpent to persuade them to take the fruit so the serpent would be the fall guy for his dirty work. The JWs did not like this at all, but I have to be honest about that being what it looks like.

  There may be free will, but God tilted many of the variables to make it likely they would take the fruit, when he did not have to do it that way.