Rich Man and Lazarus

by Ding 169 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • james46888
    james46888

    "The results can be found at:

    http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/bible/hell-traditionalist-vs.-conditionalist-views.html"

    Randy - Yeah, actually your website (thought your picture looked familiar) was one of the first one's I went to when I first started witnessing to JW's some 4 1/2 years ago now. It was great help. The first group of JW's I met back then carried on a weekly study with me for almost 18-months (we went through every page of the book 'What does the Bible really teach?'). Then, in early 2009, another JW came to my door and I've been conversing with him on weekly basis until now. No success though (well, at least not that I know of - maybe they have doubts because of some of the stuff I've pointed out to them about their teachings but they are just scared to admit them to my face)

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

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    Hi

    I believe that the Lazarus and Rich Man account is neither "historical narration" (being literally impossible) nor "parable" (unless a moral lesson about wealth sharing is invented). Instead I see this account as satirical; in particular, a parody. To establish that this is the literary form employed by the Lord, there must be clear evidence that:

    a. a common or "well known story line is being imitated".

    b. irony is employed; that the story’s outcome is changed such

    that there is clear “incongruity between the actual result

    of a sequence of events and the expected result”

    c. the unexpected results "highlight human stupidity" or corruption.

    d. "a comic end is served", the purpose of which is to cause listeners

    "to detach sympathies from certain people (groups), to judge their

    actions and to see the absurdity in their behaviour.."

    I believe it can be clearly demonstrated that The Rich Man and Lazarus account satisfies these criteria and fits the mold of parody rather nicely.

    Vander

  • Ding
    Ding

    Vander,

    On what basis do you conclude that the events of the story are literally impossible? Because there is no part of a person that survives physical death? How do we know that?

    Jesus told the Sadducees point blank that they were wrong about the resurrection because they didn't understand the power of God or the scriptures. (Matthew 22:29; Mark 12:24). But he didn't say that to the Pharisees here. He doesn't rebuke and correct their misunderstanding of what happens after death.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Hi Ding,

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    Assuming that this passage actually represents "historical narration", leaves us grappling with some rather difficult questions.

    - Was Lazarus literally in Abraham's Bosom?

    - Where did the designation “ Abraham’s Bosom ” and the

    torments associated with hades originate if they cannot

    be found in the Hebrew scriptures?

    - How did Lazarus merit going to Abraham's Bosom?

    - Why didn't the rich man go to Abraham's Bosom?

    Didn’t he demonstrate genuine moral concern for

    his lost brothers despite his overwhelming pain?

    - Don’t both the good and the bad go to hell (hades/sheol)

    and if so, why didn't Lazarus go there? (Or did he?)

    Gen.42:38 Ps.16:9-10 Job !4:13 Acts 2:26,27

    - Did the rich man really lift up his literal eyes in hell and

    was his literal tongue parched by literal flames?

    - Why would the rich man merely ask for a drop of water if

    it would not even begin to cool his tongue?

    - Did the rich man actually see and plead with literal Abraham?

    -Does that mean that those in hell catch the attention of and

    converse with those in heaven?

    - Could heaven be an enjoyable place if this account represents

    what literally happens in the afterlife?

    - What do you think the point of this passage might be if it

    is a literal story?

    Rather than trying to answer these seeming difficulties, I think it is important to ask some preliminary questions in the light of Pharisaic beliefs about the afterlife. The Pharisees were the hellfire preaches of the day; they were the ones that taught that angels carried the righteous to a place on the right side of Hades they called "Abraham's Bosom" and the wicked to the left side of Hades to be tortures by wicked angels. They even partitioned Hades by a great gulf. Now where did they get these detailed ideas? And why would Jesus tell their extra-biblical story back to them? Would He be trying to scare them with their own story? I certainly don't think so.

    That Jesus did employ satire to undermine the respect the people had for their self-righteous religious authorities is well documented in the gospels. <!-- @page { margin: 0.79in } P { margin-bottom: 0.08in } --> Examples of this include, Matthew 9:13, where Jesus exempts the Pharisees from His redemptive plan because He only came for sinners, not “the righteous” and again in Luke 13:13 where Jesus ironically expresses that a prophet cannot possibly perish anywhere except in Jerusalem. Also in Matthew 22:23-33, Jesus silences the Sadducees on the question of the resurrection by expanding upon the nature of angels (verse 30). I don’t think for a moment that Jesus was seriously trying to convince the Sadducees of something they did not believe in by elaborating upon something else they equally dismissed as nonexistent.

    The question is this: What evidence is there that suggests that the Lazarus and the Rich Man account is "parody"?

    Vander

  • tenyearsafter
    tenyearsafter

    djeggnog...

    I have a question?...if parables are all illustrations and "make believe", why does the WTS take the parable of the Faithful and Discreet Slave as being literal and applicable to them?

    You seem knowledgeable on things JW, so I would appreciate a response.

  • Ding
    Ding

    Vander,

    Good questions. Here is a post from Randy Watters in another thread discussing hell. He's done a detailed study of the history of the teaching which is available through the link below.

    From Randy

    The concept of a burning hell predated the church by ages, and was developed somewhat in the Talmud. Mainstream orthodox Judaism did use it as fear of punishment, but as Jews can be in religious discussion, the rabbis had many stories woven around it, some of which were contradictory, but all pointed to clear physical punishment. Most all the cultures had similar punishments awaiting the damned.

    While the OT Sheol was definitely a place for the bodiless soul, which "lived" on after death, awaiting the resurrection (recombination of soul and body in Jerusalem on the Mount of Olives), the intertestamental period between the last of the prophets and Jesus borrowed all kinds of previously unknown concepts, such as Tartarus, the Lake of Fire, Gehenna, and God watching the torment of those who reject Christ from the AGES TO THE AGES (aionios ton aionios) as well as the abstract mathemetical concept of infinity; something foreign to the Jewish mind. Jehovah got meaner between the old and new testaments!

    Jesus, in his parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus and other warnings to the Pharisees, simply expounded the same tradition of the Pharisees; unlike the Sadducees who did not believe much in the supernatural. Jesus used the same illustration types we find in the Talmud of hell; in fact he makes it somewhat worse on occasion.

    This is what is so damning to the Watchtower - to reject hell they reject a prime teaching of Jesus. He didn't use a story of something disgusting to himself to warn people that they would meet the same fate - how stupid are the JWs with this.

    Compare views on hell HERE http://www.freeminds.org/doctrine/bible/hell-traditionalist-vs.-conditionalist-views.html

  • pseudoxristos
    pseudoxristos

    Here is some of the reference material I collected while researching this years ago. I can't remember the dates of the material, but I think it probably covers the period of about 200BCE to 200AD. I hope the links still work.

    pseudo

    The Apocalypse of Zephaniah 10

    (1)Then the great angel came to me with the golden trumpet in his hand, and he blew it up to heaven. (2)Heaven opened from the place where the sun rises to where it sets, from the north to the south. (3) I saw the sea which I had seen at the bottom of Hades. Its waves came up to the clouds. (4)I saw all the souls sinking in it. I saw some whose hands were bound to their neck, with their hands and feet being fettered. (5)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are the ones who were bribed and they were given gold and silver until the souls of men were led astray." (6)And I saw others covered with mats of fire. (7)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are the ones who give money at interest, and they receive interest for interest." (8)And I also saw some blind ones crying out. And I was amazed when I saw all these works of God. (9)I said, "Who are these?" He said to me, "These are catechumens who heard the word of God, but they were not perfected in the work which they heard." (10) And I said to him, "Then do they not have repentance here?" He said, "Yes." (11)I said, "How long?" He said to me, "Until the day when the Lord will judge." (12)And I saw others with their hair on them. (13)I said, "Then there is hair and body in this place?" (14) He said, "Yes, the Lord gives body and hair to them as he desires."

    The Apocalypse of Zephaniah 11

    (1)And I also saw multitudes. He brought them forth. (2)As they looked at all of the torments they called out, praying before the Lord Almighty, saying, "We pray to you on account of those who are in all these torments so that you might have mercy on all of them." (3) And when I saw them, I said to the angel who spoke with me, "(Who are these?)" (4)He said, "These who beseech the Lord are Abraham and Isaac and Jacob. (5)Then at a certain hour daily they come forth with the great angel. He sounds a trumpet up to heaven and another sound upon the earth. (6)All the righteous hear the sound. They come running, praying to the Lord Almighty daily on behalf of these who are in all these torments."

    Testament of Abraham 12

    (1)While he was yet saying these things to me, behold (there were) two angels, with fiery aspect and merciless intention and relentless look, and they drove myriads of souls, mercilessly beating them with fiery lashes. (2)And the angel seized one soul. And they drove all the souls into the broad gate toward destruction. (3)Then we too followed the angels and we came inside that broad gate. (4)And between the two gates there stood a terrifying throne with the appearance of terrifying crystal, flashing like fire. (5)And upon it sat a wondrous man, bright as the sun, like unto a son of God. (6) Before him stood a table like crystal, all of gold and byssus. (7)On the table lay a book whose thickness was six cubits, while its breadth was ten cubits. (8)On its right and on its left stood two angels holding papyrus and ink and pen. (9)In front of the table sat a light-bearing angel, holding a balance in his hand. (10)[On] (his) left there sat a fiery angel, altogether merciless and relentless, holding a trumpet in his hand, which contained within it an all- consuming fire (for) testing the sinners. (11)And the wondrous man who sat on the throne was the one who judged and sentenced the souls. (12)The two angels on the right and on the left recorded. The one on the right recorded righteous deeds, while the one on the left (recorded) sins. (13)And the one who was in front of the table, who was holding the balance, weighed the souls. (14)And the fiery angel, who held the fire, tested the souls. (15)And Abraham asked the Commander-in-Chief Michael, "What are these things which we see?" And the Commander-in-chief said, "These things which you see, pious Abraham, are judgment and recompense." (16)And behold, the angel who held the soul in his hand brought it before the judge. (17)And the judge told one of the angels who served him, "Open for me this book and find for me the sins of this soul." (18)And when he opened the book he found its sins and righteous deeds to equally balanced, and he neither turned it over to the tortures nor (placed it among) those who were being saved but he set it in the middle.

    Greek Apocalypse of Ezra 4

    (1)And the prophet said, "Lord, I shall never cease arguing the case with you." (2)And God said, "Count the flowers of the earth. (3)If you can count them you also will be able to argue the case with me." (4) And the prophet said, "Lord, I cannot count them-I bear human flesh- but neither will I stop arguing the case with you. (5)I wish, Lord, to see the lower parts of Tartarus." (6)And God said, "Go down and see!" (7)And he gave me Michael and Gabriel and thirty-four other angels. (8)and I descended eithty-five steps and they led me down five hundred steps.

    4 Maccabees

    13 Now, therefore, if the seven brothers scorned suffering even unto death, it must be universal conceded that the pious reason is complete master of the passions. (2)For if being enslaved to the passions they had eaten unclean food, we would have said that they had been conquered by them. (3)However, in this case it did not happen so, but by the reason which is commended by God they prevailed over the passions, (4)and so we cannot but preceive the mind's supremacy over them since they overcame both passion and sufferings. (5)How then can we fail to admit, in regard to these men, right reason's victory over the passions, seeing that they did not shrink from the pains of fire? (6)Even as towers at the entrance to harbors repulse the threatening onslaughts of the waves and provide a calm haven for those who sail into it. (7)so the seven-towered right reason of the youths forified the have of piety and tamed the rugged license of the passions. (8)They formed a hol choir of piety as they encouraged each other with the words, (9)"Let us die like brothers all, brothers, for the Law's sake. Let us follow the example of the three youths in Assyria, who despised the same trial by ordeal in the furnace. Let us not be pusillanimous in the demonstration of true piety." (10,11)"Courage, brother!" said one, and another, "Hold on nobly!" (12)And another, recalling the past, said, "Remember whence you came and at the hand of what father Isaac gave himself to be sacrificed for piety's sake." (13)Each one severally and all together, looking at each other with most cheerful mien, aglow with courage, said, "With all our hearts let us consecrate ourselves unto God, who gave us our souls, and let us expend our bodies for the custodianship of the Law. (14)Let us have no fear of him who thinks he kills. (15)Great is the ordeal and peril of the soul that lies in wait in eternal torment for those who transgress the commandment of God. (16)Let us then arm ourselves with the control over the passions which comes from divine reason. (17)After our death in this fashion Abraham and Isaac and Jacob will receive us, and all our forefathers will praise us." (18)And to each one of the brothers as they were dragged away, those who were left said, "Do not shame us, brother, nor be traitor to our brothers who have already died."

    Matt 10 28

    Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

    2 Esdras 7

    (26)'Listen! The time shall come when the signs I have foretold will be seen; the city which is now invisible shall appear and the country now concealed be made visible. (27)Everyone who has been delivered from the evils I have foretold shall see for himself my marvellous acts. (28)My son the Messiah shall appear with his companions and bring four hundred years of happiness to all who survive. (29)At the end of that time, my son the Messiah shall die, and so shall all mankind who draw breath. (30)Then the wrold shall return to its origninal silence for seven days as at the beginning of creation, and no one shall be left alive. (31)After seven days the age which is not yet awake shall be roused and the age which is corruptible shall die. (32)The earth shall give up those who sleep in it, and the dust those who rest there in silence; and the storehouses shall give back the souls entrusted to them. (33)Then the Most High shall be seen on the judgement-seat, and there shall be an end of all pity and patience. (34)Judgement alone shall remain; (35)truth shall stand firm and faithfulness be strong; requital shall at once begin and open payment be made; good deeds shall awake and wicked deeds shall not be allowed to sleep. (36)Then the place of torment shall appear, and over against it the place of rest; the furnace of hell shall be displayed, and on the opposite side the paradise of delight.

    Jewish Martyrs believed that: "After our death in this fashion Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will receive us and all our forefathers will praise us"

    (4 Maccabees 13:17 in J.H. Charlesworth, The OT Pseudepigrapha, Doubleday, 1983).

    "You have escaped from the abyss and Hades, you will now cross over the crossing place... then he ran to all the righteous ones, namely Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Enoch, Elijah and David"

    (Apocalypse of Zephaniah 9:2. Charlesworth, op. cit.).

    The Antiquities of the Jews Book 18

    Now, for the Pharisees, they live meanly, and despise delicacies in diet; and they follow the conduct of reason; and what that prescribes to them as good for them, they do; and they think they ought earnestly to strive to observe reason's dictates for practice. They also pay a respect to such as are in years; nor are they so bold as to contradict them in anything which they have introduced; and, when they determine that all things are done by fate, they do not take away the freedom from men of acting as they think fit; since their notion is, that it hath pleased God to make a temperament, whereby what he wills is done, but so that the will of men can act virtuously or viciously. They also believe that souls have an immortal vigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; on account of which doctrines, they are able greatly to presuade the body of the people; and whatsoever they do about divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices, they perform them according to their direction; insomuch that the cities gave great attestations to them on account of their entire virtuous conduct, both in the actions of their lives and their discourses also.

    (The Antiquities of the Jews Book 18, Chapter 1)

    2 Peter

    4 For if God did not spare the angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of deepest darkness to be kept until the judgment;

    (2 Peter 2:4 (NRSV))

    Jude 1:6

    6 And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

    Jude 1:6-7 (NRSV)

    Tartarus:

    In yet one other passage in the New Testament (2Pet 2:4), "to cast down to hell" is used (the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American)) to represent the Greek [tartaroo], ("to send into Tartarus"). Here it stands for the place of punishment of the fallen angels: "spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them down to hell, and committed them to pits (or chains) of darkness" (compare Jude 1:6; but also Mt 25:41). Similar ideas are found in certain of the Jewish apocalyptic books

    (Book of Enoch, Book of Jubilees, Apocrypha Baruch, with apparent reference to Gen 6:1-4; compare ESCHATOLOGY, OF THE OT)

    1 Enoch

    4Then explain to him the consummation which is about to take place; for all the earth shall perish; the waters of a deluge shall come over the whole earth, and all things which are in it shall be destroyed. 5And now teach him how he may escape, and how his seed may remain in all the earth. 6Again the Lord said to Raphael, Bind Azazyel hand and foot; cast him into darkness; and opening the desert which is in Dudael, cast him in there. 7Throw upon him hurled and pointed stones, covering him with darkness; 8There shall he remain for ever; cover his face, that he may not see the light. 9And in the great day of judgment let him be cast into the fire. 10Restore the earth, which the angels have corrupted; and announce life to it, that I may revive it. 11All the sons of men shall not perish in consequence of every secret, by which the Watchers have destroyed, and which they have taught, their offspring. 12All the earth has been corrupted by the effects of the teaching of Azazyel. To him therefore ascribe the whole crime.

    13To Gabriel also the Lord said, Go to the biters, (13) to the reprobates, to the children of fornication; and destroy the children of fornication, the offspring of the Watchers, from among men; bring them forth, and excite them one against another. Let them perish by mutual slaughter; for length of days shall not be theirs. 14They shall all entreat you, but their fathers shall not obtain their wishes respecting them; for they shall hope for eternal life, and that they may live, each of them, five hundred years.

    15To Michael likewise the Lord said, Go and announce his crime to Samyaza, and to the others who are with him, who have been associated with women, that they might be polluted with all their impurity. And when all their sons shall be slain, when they shall see the perdition of their beloved, bind them for seventy generations underneath the earth, even to the day of judgment, and of consummation, until the judgment, the effect of which will last for ever, be completed. 16Then shall they be taken away into the lowest depths of the fire in torments; and in confinement shall they be shut up for ever. 17Immediately after this shall he, (14) together with them, burn and perish; they shall be bound until the consummation of many generations.

    18Destroy all the souls addicted to dalliance, (15) and the offspring of the Watchers, for they have tyrannized over mankind. 19Let every oppressor perish from the face of the earth; 20Let every evil work be destroyed;

    21The plant of righteousness and of rectitude appear, and its produce become a blessing. 22Righteousness and rectitude shall be for ever planted with delight. 23And then shall all the saints give thanks, and live until they have begotten a thousand children, while the whole period of their youth, and their sabbaths shall be completed in peace. In those days all the earth shall be cultivated in righteousness; it shall be wholly planted with trees, and filled with benediction; every tree of delight shall be planted in it.

    http://www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/enoch.html#10

    2 Enoch

    "2 Enoch, or the Slavonic Apocalypse of Enoch, was written late first century C.E. in Egypt by a Jew. It survives only in late Old Slavonic manuscripts. It may have been composed originally in Aramaic or Hebrew, later being translated into Greek, and later still being translated into Old Slavonic. It is an amplification of Gen 5:21-32 (from Enoch to the Flood). Major theological themes include:

    (1) God created the world out of nothing (24:2);

    (2) seven heavens (30:2-3) and angelic hosts;

    (3) God created the souls of men before the foundation of the earth (23:5);

    (4) abodes of heaven and hell are already prepared for righteous and sinners; and

    (5) ethical teachings, which at times parallel those of the NT and Proverbs."

    http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/enoch.html

    ZOROASTRIANISM

    ...

    3. Possible Theological Influence:

    As a matter of fact, after Israel's contact with Persia the following elements, all known to Mazdeism, appear, and apparently for the first time: (1) a formal angelology, with six (or seven) archangels at the head of the developed hierarchy; (2) these angels not mere companions of God but His intermediaries, established (often) over special domains; (3) in the philosophical religion, a corresponding doctrine of hypostases; (4) as a result, a remoter conception of God; (5) a developed demonology; (6) the conception of a supreme head (Satan) over the powers of evil; (7) the doctrine of immortality; (8) rewards or punishments for the soul immediately after death; (9) a schematic eschatology especially as regards chronological systems; (10) a superhuman Messiah; (11) bodily resurrection; (12) a rationalized, legalistic conception of God's moral demands....

    International Standard Bible Encyclopedia

    Testament of Benjamin

    "And then you will see Enoch and Seth and Abraham and Isaac and Jacob being raised up at the right hand in great joy. Then shall we be raised, each of us over our tribe, and we shall prostrate ourselves before the heavenly King. Then all shall be changed, some destined for glory, others for dishonor, for the Lord first judges Israel for the wrong she has committed and then he shall do the same for all the nations."

    (Testament of Benjamin 10:6-11)

    2 Baruch

    For the earth will surely give back the dead at that time; it receives them now in order to keep them, not changing anything back in their form. But as it has received them so it will give them back. And as I have delivered them to it so it will raise them. For then it will be necessary to show those who live that the dead are living again, and that those who went away have come back. And it will be that when they have recognized each other, those who know each other at this moment, that my judgment will be strong, and those things which have been spoken of before will come. And it will happen after this day which he appointed is over that both the shape of those who are found to be guilty as also the glory of those who have proved righteous will be changed. For the shape of those who now act wickedly will be made more evil than it is now so that they shall suffer torment. As for the glory of those who proved to be righteous on account of my law, those who possessed intelligence in their life, and those who planted the root of wisdom in their heart, their splendor will then be glorified by transformations, and the shape of their face will be changed into the light of their beauty....Both these and those will be changed, these into the splendor of angels and those into startling visions and horrible shapes, and they will waste away even more....Why do we weep for those who go into the realm of death? The lamentations should be kept for the beginning of that coming torment; let the tears be laid down for the coming of that destruction which will then come....The torment of judgment will fall upon those who have not subjected themselves to your power...for at the end of the world, a retribution will be demanded with regard to those who have done wickedly in accordance with their wickedness....

    (2 Baruch 50:2-52:5, 54:14, 21)

    The text goes on to describe the bliss of Paradise for the righteous and the torture of chains and everlasting darkness for the wicked.

    1 Enoch 22

    They prepared these places in order to put the souls of the children of the people there until the day of their judgment and the appointed time of the great judgment upon them. I saw the spirits of the people that were dead, and their voices were reaching into heaven until this very moment...At that moment, I raised a question regarding the judgment of all, 'For what reason is one separated from the other?' And he replied and said to me, 'These three have been made in order that the spirits of the dead may be separated. And in the manner in wihch the souls of the righteous are separated by this spring of water with light upon it, in like manner the sinners are set apart when they die and are buried in the earth and judgment has not yet been executed upon them in their lifetime, upon this great pain, until the great day of judgment -- and to those who curse there will be plague and pain forever, and the retribution of their spirits. They will bind them forever -- even if from the beginning of the world.

    (1 Enoch 22:4-5, 8-12)

    Ascension of Isaiah

    This accursed valley [e.g. Gehenna] is for those accursed forever; here will gather together all those accursed ones, those who speak with their mouths unbecoming words against the Lord and utter hard words concerning his glory. Here shall they be gathered together, and here shall be their judgment, in the last days. There will be upon them the spectacle of the righteous judgment, in the presence of the righteous forever....There was produced from that bronze and fire a smell of sulfur which blended with those waters. This valley of the perversive angels shall continue to burn punitively underneath that ground....The Most High will arise on that day of judgment in order to execute a great judgment upon all the sinners...Woe unto you sinners, when you oppress the righteous ones, in the day of hard anguish, and burn them with fire! You shall be recompensed according to your deeds. On account of the deeds of your wicked ones, in blazing fires worse than fire it shall burn....You yourselves know that they will bring your souls down to Sheol and they shall experience evil and great tribulation--in darkness, nets, and burning flame. Your souls shall enter into the great judgment; it shall be a great judgment in all the generations of the world. (1 Enoch 27:2-3, 100:4-9, 103:7-8)

    I will burn with fire those who mocked them and ruled over them in this age...I have prepared them to be food for the fire of Hades, and to be ceaseless soaring in the air of the underworld regions of the uttermost depths, to the contents of a wormy belly....For they shall putrefy in the belly of the crafty worm Azazel, and be bburned by the fire of Azazel's tongue....And behold, in this light a fiery Gehenna was enkindled, and a great crowd in the likeness of men. They were all changing in aspect and shape, running and changing form and prostrating themselves and crying aloud words I did not know. (Apocalypse of Abraham 15:6-7, 31:2-6)

    The souls of the wicked are brought down to Sheol by two angels of destruction, Za'api'el and Samki'el....Za'api'el is appointed to bring down the souls of the wicked from the presence of the Holy One, blessed be he, from the judgment of the Sekinah, to Sheol, to punish them with the fire in Gehinnom, with rods of burning coal. (3 Enoch 44:2-3)

    The Lord will come with his angels and with the armies of the holy ones of the seventh heaven and with the glory of the seventh heaven, and he will drag Beliar into Gehenna and also his armies, ... the Beloved will cause fire to go forth from him, and it will consume all the godless. (Ascension of Isaiah 4:14, 18)

    Other Interesting links and articles:

    Sheol

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=614&letter=S

    Gehenna

    http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=115&letter=G

    A Guide to Understanding the Bible by Harry Emerson Fosdick

    Chapter 6: The Idea of Immortality

    …In this transformation of Sheol, as in other regards, a florescent development of Jewish thought took place between the Testaments. The details of the various books are confused and contradictory. Always in the background is the persistent idea of Sheol, but as in the Greek Orphic cults Hades became an intermediate state where souls were punished and purged until, fully cleansed, they could ascend to the blessed life with God, so Sheol among the Jews became intermediate and preparatory, leading up to the judgment day and its eternal awards. As such, the idea is still immensely influential under the guise of the Roman Catholic purgatory, for purgatory is simply Sheol developed and sublimated…

    http://www.religion-online.org/showchapter.asp?title=545&C=654

    SHEOL - IS IT MERELY THE GRAVE?

    The following is a limited study of the meaning of Sheol in the Old Testament. Jehovah's Witnesses and others maintain that Sheol is the common grave of mankind, and that man ceases to exist at death. They also deny any conscious punishment of the wicked after death

    It is my conviction that the Scriptural concept of Sheol is *not* simply the grave. I believe that thorough study of the word in the Scriptures reveals it to be a place of conscious existence for souls after death. Without getting too long-winded, her a a few reasons why I believe this is so:

    1) There exists in Hebrew a specific word for the grave: kever. When the biblical authors wanted to speak of the grave, they used the word kever. That they did not view kever and Sheol as synonymous is clear from the way these words are used throughout the Old Testament. For example, in Isa. 14:19, the king is cast out of his grave (kever) in order to be thrown into Sheol where the departed spirits can rebuke him (vv.9,10). In this passage, Sheol and kever are opposites, not synonyms.

    2) This distinction is maintained in the Septuagint as well.In the Septuagint, Sheol is never translated as mneema, which is the Greek word for grave. It is always translated as Hades which meant the underworld.

    3) Many distinctions exist between kever and Sheol. While bodies are unconscious in the grave, those in Sheol are viewed as being conscious (Isa. 14:4-7; 44:23; Ezek. 31:16; 32:21). While touching a grave brings ceremonial defilement (Num. 19:16), the Scriptures never speak of anyone being defiled by Sheol. While we can enter and leave a tomb or grave (2 Kings 23:16), no one is ever said to enter and then leave Sheol. Many other such distinctions can be found in the Hebrew scriptures.

    4) God's revelation to OT saints about the afterlife was not complete. As such, much of the language used about Sheol is figurative, and incomplete in descriptiveness. Nevertheless, it is clear, I believe, that these saints understood that Sheol represented a place of conscious existence after death, and not simply the common grave of mankind. It was viewed as a place where one can reunite with his ancestors, tribe or people (Gen. 15:15; 25:8; 35:29; 37:35; 49:33; Num. 20:24, 28; 31:2; Deut. 32:50; 34:5; 2 Sam. 12:23). This cannot refer to one common mass

    grave where everyone was buried. No such graves ever existed in recorded history. Sheol is the place where the souls of all men go at death. That is why Jacob looked forward to reuniting with Joseph in Sheol (Gen 37:35).

    5) The Scriptures suggest that Sheol has different sections. There is the contrast between "the lowest part" and "the highest part" of Sheol (Deut. 32:22). This figurative language implies that there are divisions or distinctions within Sheol. While this is not clearly stated in the Old Testament, there seems to be some kind of distinction within Sheol. Later rabbinic writers clearly taught that Sheol had two sections. The righteous were in bliss in one section while the wicked were in torment in the other.

    6) the condition of those in Sheol is described in the following ways: At death man becomes a rephaim, i.e., a "ghost, "shade," or "disembodied spirit" according to Job 26:5; Ps. 88:10; Prov. 2:18; 9:18; 21:16; Isa. 14:9; 26:14,19. Instead of describing man as passing into nonexistence, the Old Testament states that man becomes a disembodied spirit. The usage of the word rephaim establishes this truth. Langenscheidt's Hebrew-English Dictionary to the Old Testament (p.324) defines rephaim as referring to the "departed spirits, Hades." Brown, Driver and Briggs (p.952) define rephaim as "Hades, ghosts...name of dead in Sheol." Keil and Delitzsch define rephaim as referring to "those who are bodiless in the state after death." This concept is carried on into the New Testament in such places as Luke 24:37-39. A belief in "ghosts" necessarily entails a belief that man survives the death of the body. Those in Sheol are pictured as conversing with each other and even making moral judgments on the lifestyle of new arrivals (Isa. 14:9-20; 44:23; Ezek. 32:21). They are thus conscious entities while in Sheol.

    7) God's judgment upon the wicked does not cease when the wicked die in their sins. Thus some of the spirits in Sheol experience the following: a. God's anger (Deut. 32:22): According to Moses, the wicked experience the fire of YHWH's anger in the "lowest part of Sheol." This passage would make no sense if the wicked are nonexistent and Sheol is the grave.

    b. Distress (Ps. 116:3): The Hebrew word matzar refers to the distress that is felt when in the straits of a difficulty. It is found in this sense in Ps. 118:5. Also, the word chevel, which is the poetic parallel for matzar, means "cords of distress" (2 Sam. 22:6; Ps. 18:6).

    c. Writhing in pain (Job 26:5): The Hebrew word chool means to twist and turn in pain like a woman giving birth.

    It is obvious that nonexistence can hardly experience anger, distress, or the like.

    -------------------------------------------

    file: /pub/resources/text/apl/jw: sheol.txt

    .

    http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/apl/jw/sheol.txt

  • james46888
    james46888

    "- Where did the designation "Abraham's Bosom" and thetorments associated with hades originate if they cannotbe found in the Hebrew scriptures?"

    The term is not in the OT, but the concept is.
    "- How did Lazarus merit going to Abraham's Bosom?"

    Faith/repentance towards God.

    "- Why didn't the rich man go to Abraham's Bosom?"
    Lack of the above

    "Didn't he demonstrate genuine moral concern forhis lost brothers despite his overwhelming pain?"
    Maybe, but I don't see why that means he escapes punishment.

    "- Don't both the good and the bad go to hell (hades/sheol)and if so, why didn't Lazarus go there? (Or did he?)Gen.42:38 Ps.16:9-10 Job !4:13 Acts 2:26,27"

    Yes they do, and Lazarus did go there.

    "- Did the rich man really lift up his literal eyes in hell andwas his literal tongue parched by literal flames?"

    I'd lean toward saying "yes" but even if taken non-literally, the story still shows that the unbelieving experience punishment in the next life.


    "- Why would the rich man merely ask for a drop of water ifit would not even begin to cool his tongue?"

    Knowing it would be too much to be asked to be set free completely, he asked for the solace of one drop of water

    "- Did the rich man actually see and plead with literal Abraham?"
    Yes.
    "-Does that mean that those in hell catch the attention of andconverse with those in heaven?"
    No, both the rich man and Abraham were in sheol

    "- Could heaven be an enjoyable place if this account representswhat literally happens in the afterlife?"
    See answer to last question
    "- What do you think the point of this passage might be if itis a literal story?"
    Reversal of fortune in next life; riches don't save.

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Thanks for answering my questions

    Where did the designation "Abraham's Bosom" and the torments associated with hades originate if they cannotbe found in the Hebrew scriptures?
    "The term is not in the OT, but the concept is."

    Do you have a verse or two to support this?

    How did Lazarus merit going to Abraham's Bosom?

    "Faith/repentance towards God."

    Which verse in the account supports this?

    Why didn't the rich man go to Abraham's Bosom?

    "Lack of the above"

    That's not the reason Abraham gives. The only reasoning is: Good now, bad later.

    Didn't he demonstrate genuine moral concern for his lost brothers despite his overwhelming pain?

    "Maybe, but I don't see why that means he escapes punishment."

    Punishment for what?

    Don't both the good and the bad go to hell (hades/sheol)and if so, why didn't Lazarus go there? (Or did he?)Gen.42:38 Ps.16:9-10 Job !4:13 Acts 2:26,27
    Yes they do, and Lazarus did go there.

    You got that right. :0)

    Did the rich man really lift up his literal eyes in hell and was his literal tongue parched by literal flames?
    I'd lean toward saying "yes" but even if taken non-literally, the story still shows that the unbelieving experience punishment in the next life.

    The story is literal....because that is the way it would have been understood by the Pharisees and the common people.

    Why would the rich man merely ask for a drop of water if it would not even begin to cool his tongue?

    Knowing it would be too much to be asked to be set free completely, he asked for the solace of one drop of water.

    Can't legitimately get into the rich man's head....but one drop would certainly not bring solace of any kind.

    Did the rich man actually see and plead with literal Abraham?

    Yes.

    Ok.

    Does that mean that those in hell catch the attention of and converse with those in heaven?

    No, both the rich man and Abraham were in sheol.

    Excellent. So are you saying that the people currently in the bad side of hell can communicate with those on the other side?

    Could heaven be an enjoyable place if this account representswhat literally happens in the afterlife?

    See answer to last question

    OK, could hell be an enjoyable place for the righteous as they see and hear the cries of the tormented?

    What do you think the point of this passage might be if itis a literal story?

    Reversal of fortune in next life; riches don't save.

    Perfect. Then may you be blessed each day with disease pain and sorrow in this life. :o)

    Vander

  • Vanderhoven7
    Vanderhoven7

    Although there was no single Jewish doctrine of hell, history establishes that the idea of everlasting conscious punishment of the wicked was affirmed in some rabbinical circles as early as the intertestamental period. This is clearly documented in Judith, one of the books of the Apocrypha (hidden books) written about 150 BC.

    “W oe to the nations that rise up against my race;

    The Lord Almighty will take vengeance of them

    in the day of judgment,

    To put fire and worms in their flesh;

    And they shall weep and feel their pain forever.”

    Jth. 16:17

    Also in the Pseudepigrapha (literally “false writings”), consisting of 77 books thought to have been written between 200 BC. and 100 AD., the theme of ongoing conscious torment is depicted as at least one of the retributive scenarios for the wicked. In the second book of Enoch for example, a rather terrifying place is described, where;

    murky fire constantly flameth aloft, and a fiery river

    (comes) forth, and the whole place is everywhere fire,

    and everywhere frost and ice, thirst and shivering,

    while the bonds are very cruel, and the angels fearful

    and merciless, bearing angry weapons, merciless

    torture. 2 En. 40:12

    Early post apostolic history also witnesses to the continuity of the doctrine of eternal torment within both Jewish and Christian traditions. Jewish literature during this period often graphically detailed the retributive misery of the damned. For example, licentious men are spoken of as hanging by their genitals, woman who suckled their young in public, as hanging by their breasts, and those who talked during synagogue prayers, as having their mouths filled with hot coals. Christian literature of the period, is strikingly similar in nature. The New Testament Apocrypha for example, including books such as, “The Apocalypse of Peter”, “The Acts of Thomas” and “The Apocalypse of Paul”, speak of blasphemers hanging by their tongues, women who had had abortions, as sitting neck deep in excrement, and those who turned their backs on God as being slowly baked in fire.

    Vander

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